Posted on 08/28/2008 2:46:46 PM PDT by jessduntno
John McCain's Imprisonment in Vietnam: A True Tale of Heroism
James Ray
Have you ever heard the whole account of John McCain's imprisonment during the Vietnam War? Until recently, I was only aware of the general story; I didn't know the details. But I recently read a couple of pieces on McCain's capture, imprisonment and torture by the North Vietnamese, and it blew me away. Not since Ernest Shackleton's cursed journey to the South Pole have I heard a tale of such courage, mental toughness and physical endurance.
The Young John McCain
The Crash and Capture In October of 1967, McCain was flying a mission over Hanoi in his A-4 Skyhawk plane, when his craft was hit with enemy fire. With his plane going down in flames, McCain ejected his seat and his body from the cockpit of plane, but in the process he broke both of his arms and one leg. He also suffered a severe concussion, which must have made it even harder for him to find and pull his chute. But he did. With two broken arms and cracked noggin, falling towards the North Vietnamese soldiers who had just shot his airplane out from under him, this guy somehow had the wherewithal to pull his cute and keep himself alive.
He landed hard in a pond in downtown Hanoi and was immediately set upon by North Vietnamese soldiers. One bayoneted McCain in the groin. Another broke his shoulder with the butt of a rifle. The attack also further compounded his leg fracture; his tibia was now sticking out of his leg at a ninety-degree angle.
His broken body was thown into back of a jeep, and McCain was taken to the Hoa Lo prison, also kown as "The Hanoi Hilton." From all of the accounts of American POWs who were trapped in this place, it sounds like the Hilton was the worst, shittiest prison on earth.
Shortly after being brought in, a doctor who was either incompetent or simply cruel set two of McCain's fractures without anaesthesia and then refused to set the other two. McCain was then beaten and tortured for several days. Among other horrors that he endured, his arms were bound together behind hi back and he was lifted off the ground in medieval torture style. After more than anyone could possibly be expected to endure, McCain was put into a prison cell and left there, for a long time.
The Offer To Be Set Free Over the months, his weight dropped to about 100 pounds. Other POWs thought he would die for sure. But he didn't. McCain somehow recovered. His bones healed, although he would forever be limited in his movement, and he gained back his strength.
Then, in 1968, he was called into the prison commandant's office and offered his release.
It seemed that McCain's father, Admiral John McCain, Sr., had been named head of all all navy forces in the Pacific. The North Vietnamese thought it would be a smart public relations move to release the admiral's son. But the younger McCain refused. He cited a rule from the military's code of conduct that said that prisoners of war were to be released in the order they were captured and imprisoned. McCain said it was simply unfair for him to get out when another guy who'd been there for years would have to stay. He refused to be released.
Prison guards tried to persuade the young pilot by breaking two of his ribs, knocking out his teeth and re-breaking one of his arms. He still refused to leave.
After all that punishment and torture and psychological abuse, I'd imagine that most men would be able to rationalize breaking that rule, just this once. But not McCain. He stayed.
And he spent the next four years of his life at the Hanoi Hilton, much of it in a small solitary confinement cell called the "punishment room."
He was finally released on March 14, 1972, more than five years after his capture. To this day, he remains physically limited by the injuries he sustained in prison.
Conclusion I don't know if John McCain will win the election, or if he can be a good president. I certainly don't know if he can get us out of the many messes created by our current presidential administration. I don't even think that I am going to vote for him.
But if he does become president, I will find comfort in having a leader with a heart that is 100 times bigger than his predecessor, a devotion to his country and to his military duty that is second to none, and the physical and mental toughness of an fing bull.
Yeah, I wonder if Obama will tell us about his military service record and his love for our military tonight...????
Good capsule version for ANTONE to read who still doesn’t know the story - which is wayyyyyyyyyyyy too many people at this point. I sent this to a friend last night and he actually called me and said that he had heard references to the fact he was a POW, but not quite so much detail.
Be careful. The McCain Deranged will be here soon. Ye shall be flamed.
According to some at this forum, McCain sold out his country for easy treatment, that he was treated well because his father was an Admiral.
Interesting.
The writer admits that he isn’t sure that he’ll vote for McCain, but encourages others to do so because of his ‘big heart’.
From this particular story, there is plenty of room for speculation about McCain’s time in captivity. Some who were there claim that he was honorable, others say differently.
First they thought that he was dying, then he made a surprising recovery. I’m here to tell you that without medical intervention and proper nutrition, dying people do not suddenly (or even slowly) get better. They get worse and die.
Then four years in solitary. Was he? Who knows?
I am just saying that for the most part, it’s a ‘he said, she said’ situation. His account acquits him while other’s reports condemn him. Who to believe?
I don’t know what when on there and damn few other do either and what I am about to say is not to condemn him for breaking IF he did break. Being subjected to torture can make a man do things that he would not ordinarily do. He knows that better than most and that’s why he opposes the use of torture now.
Since I don’t know what happened there then, my opposition to him is based on the damage that he’s done since then, the policies that he advances, and the potential for great harm if he sits in the Oval Office.
I know Obama is a much worse man than McCain. I don’t know that he won’t be more effective in undermining and destroying our liberty.
I wouldn’t be a bit surprised if the Democrats start saying that McCain served time in jail for setting off bombs.
The most disgraceful comment I’ve heard so far this campaign season came from Gen. Wesley Clarke. He said in effect that John McCain was “riding” in a plane and was shot down. Clark made it sound like he went to the Air Boss and asked for a round-trip ticket to Haiphong harbor. The stewardess showed him to his seat and he buckled up. In other words, Clark said that McCain was merely a passenger on a flight that crashed.
I’ve read that he was somehow responsible, but I don’t think that it was deliberate. He wasn’t charged or convicted. Maybe because he wasn’t involved or maybe because it was an accident or maybe because of the clout of his father.
My point in the my original post was that just because some of us do not share your admiration for McCain or excited about the prospects of him being elected doesn’t mean that we are deranged. There is room for doubt and question.
I do know this. It takes the likes of Obama to make him look good to a lot of people.
I do know this: The McCain deranged are unable to differentiate between a young warrior and an old senator.
Slam his politics all you wish for I will likely agree. Slime the young Naval Aviator who risked all in defense of his country and I will pound you into the dirt.
His POW esperience is irrelevant to becoming POTUS. His treatement of the POW families and his votes - of lack of - on veterans’ issues is a more important criteria. Palin is a far better choice for POTUS than McCain.
So there are no bad people in uniform? No cowards, traitors, or criminals? All is absolved because of the uniform?
Interesting perspective, if that’s what you are claiming. Do your best. Pound away.
Where in post #12 do you see McCain mentioned, let alone called anything?
I asked a general question and rather than answer, you take (or fake) umbrage and accuse me of saying things that I didn’t say.
Patriotism is the last bastion of the scoundrel.
I would suggest that you re-read (or read for the first time) what I said in post #5.
It seems that it’s more fun for you to ignore what’s written.
I am an admirer of the bravery of young John McCain.
I toss that read meat comment out now and then. The McCain Deranged cannot resist.
LOL
You ignore again what is written, jump to baseless conclusions, and declare yourself the victor.
You are laughable.
I only ask because after several posts you have yet to make a direct accusation of malfeasance or dishonor on the part of young John McCain.
You stick to catty innuendo; the kind of shrew like behavior learned by many babes at a young age.
I have made no accusations regarding McCain’s time in prison because neither I, nor anyone else, KNOW what happened while held captive.
I made that very clear in my first post.
I also made clear that my opposition to him was based on his performance in the Senate.
Are you illiterate? I ask only because you don’t seem to be capable of reading and understanding the plain words in my posts.
And I just assumed that you were an old broad with years of experience of being catty. Am I wrong? LOL
If not, you are therefore a little man. The kind of pipsqueak unable to back up his tongue-in-cheek insults. The kind that thinks he can build himself up by off handedly impugning the demonstrated courage of a better man than himself.
I am not responsible for, nor can I explain, your delusions, assumptions, and misconceptions.
I stated quite plainly that since I don’t know what happened while he was in that prison camp, I made no decisions on the rumors and innuendo. That’s as straightforward as I can be.
I oppose him because of the legislation that bears his name.
Can you wrap your mind around that and without hysterics or drama?
You say:
I made no decisions on . . . innuendo,
but you tossed out "patriotism is the last bastion of the scoundrel" in post #14.
So tell me little man, WHY THE HELL is that in a thread about the courage and honor of LCDR John McCain USN?
Get over yourself.
I was referring to you being a scoundrel with your attitude of wrapping yourself in the flag and uniform. (In fact, you never did reply to my question about whether the uniform absolves any crime or bad act?)
The world does not revolve around John McCain and everything is not about him. Sometimes, it is about you.
Well little man, I'm in good company with the likes of Fred Thompson who brought down the house with his praise of the young John McCain. Did you watch his speech, or could you not stand to watch a scoundrel?
It’s your behavior, sweetie.
Young John McCain — navy pilot. POW. Hero. Honorable to the max.
Middle aged and old John McCain — Author, sponsor, and cosponsor of some of the worst liberty destroying legislation ever signed into law. Ardent supporter of granting amnesty to millions and millions of illegal aliens including countless criminals all the while without securing our borders during a time of war and terror threats. Dishonorable and despicable.
Why the change? When did it happen. When does the praise end and the criticism start?
Benedict Arnold was an American war hero and then he betrayed his fellow soldiers and countrymen. Do we honor his service or just remember that in his official capacity that he betrayed his country? Do we build half a statue to him?
Despite what young McCain was or may have been, he has done a tremendous disservice to his country as a senator and I believe will continue to do so as president.
Worship him if you want. I will not.
That was the first halfhearted, sarcastic, complimentary statement you could bring yourself to make in a dozen posts to this thread about the integrity and heroism of young John McCain. Think about it.
Think about this.
I don’t care what young McCain was or wasn’t.
Middle aged and old McCain isn’t someone that I’d vote for. And if you are honest with yourself and watched his speech tonight, he hasn’t given up on amnesty. It’s coming and so are more of the same inane ideas that he wants to foist upon us and caused us to reject him so strongly early on.
They why have you been posting to this thread, John McCain's Imprisonment in Vietnam: A True Tale of Heroism, other than to tear down a man far better than yourself?
Are you here to enforce conformity?
It’s an open forum. I can read what I choose. I can think what I want and I can post to the threads that I choose.
But to explain what I said in that last post. Young McCain doesn’t influence my vote. Middle aged and old McCain cannot earn my vote no matter what he was when he was young. Whatever ideals or strength got him through captivity was not strong enough to get him through the congress and DC unscathed.
Are you deliberately trying to provoke a reaction? You’re not going to get the kind that you want. Sorry.
I've saved your post #5. It's a great example of the worst of the McCain Deranged. Congratulations.
You, a supposed conservative, not only cannot empathize with the sufferings of our military men at the Hanoi Hilton, you take the time to mock and not so subtly imply that young John McCain suffered little and actually dishonored himself.
What's the matter with you? What's your problem?
You are a despicable POS.
(Sorry about the formatting.)
LOL
If I am ‘deranged’, you are suffering from severe problems with reading comprehension.
First off, I said that based on the article there was room for doubt about happened. What’s not true about that?
I said that no man can be blamed for breaking — IF HE BROKE — under the torture that they endured. That’s not good enough for you?
BTW, last night in his speech he said that he did break. I don’t know what he meant exactly because he didn’t go into detail.
IF he did anything wrong in a prison camp under extreme duress, he can be forgiven — even if he doesn’t forgive himself. Tell me what duress he was under when he authored the horrible legislation and pursued amnesty while living in the comfortable confines of Washington DC.
THAT IS WHAT I CANNOT FORGIVE OR FORGET!
Got it?
And let me give you a little bit of advice. Quit trying to deliberately misinterpret what I say. You’ll be happier if you don’t twist yourself into knots while trying to pound me into the sand.
Now, tell me how someone who is dying and is getting no treatment and is eating the equivalent of ‘gruel’ at the hands of his captors, gets well? It doesn’t happen. Either he wasn’t as bad or he was getting treatment or both. That’s not an attack, that’s a medical fact.
BTW, George Washington — a man that I truly admire — did not chop down the cherry tree.
Here is an account from azcentral.
After six weeks in the hospital, McCain was taken to a prison camp known as The Plantation and placed in a cell with George "Bud" Day and Norris Overly, both Air Force majors.Taking one look at McCain, Day was convinced that the North Vietnamese had brought McCain to their cell to die and planned on blaming the Americans.
"He was extremely skinny, and he was just about filthy," said Day, who after the war became a longtime Fort Walton Beach, Fla., attorney and veterans-affairs activist. "He had food and drink and liquids run all over his face. He had a pretty good beard. ... He probably weighed less than 100 pounds.
"He was in this great big white cast, and his hair was snow white. He just looked like he was absolutely on the verge of death."
Day said McCain's injured right arm jutted from his body cast like a stick "sticking out of a snowman."
But more than anything else, Day remembers McCain's eyes.
"His eyes were extremely bright; they had that real fever luster," Day said. "I just took one look at him and had no qualms that he was going to die, and soon."
Despite his poor condition, McCain still was happy to see fellow Americans. The men spent the night whispering among themselves.
By 6 a.m., Day was convinced that McCain had a decent chance to live, providing the fever did not get him. Slowly, McCain began to recover.
"He was just a very determined guy with a lot of spirit," Day said. "It's kind of like when you see a horse, a young colt, and you just know this is a strong-spirited animal. You could see all that in him."
If you want to call Bud Day's (Medal of Honor) first hand account a lie based on your extensive medical knowledge you are going to have a big problem with every Freeper here.
In a nutshell, you've said it all.
bttt
Did you read what I wrote?
Did you read Day’s account?
I was commenting on the article posted. This article led me to believe that some time went by between the ‘he’s going to die’ comment and ‘somehow he recovered’. Are you with me?
Over time, without medical treatment and proper nutrition, one who is dying, dies. They do not get better.
Then I said that either he wasn’t as bad or he got treatment or both.
In Day’s account, he stated that the day McCain came into camp looking so bad that he thought that he would die. THEN, by 6 AM, he was looking better.
Guess what? If this happened within a day of arriving then Day was wrong and McCain wasn’t as bad as he thought. There is nothing inconsistent between what I said and what Day reported.
Do you feel better now? Are all of the other FReepers okay now too?
no. Why don't you go back to the Bob Barr bulletin boards and commiserate with his 3 other supporters.
Can’t ‘go back’ to something that I’ve never been to.
I like Bob Barr, personally and politically, though we do have points where we don’t see eye to eye. Still, I’ve never been to any site devoted to supporting him. Same with Ron Paul.
Can you tell me why you choose to go after me personally rather than state what I was wrong in my post?
Are you the hall monitor for the Group Think Police?
I know that I am not likely to get anything resembling an answer from you so you are under no pressure to respond.
Palin isn't the miracle answer to all our problems, but it's the best we're going to get for this cycle. Your divisive attacks on McCain are getting very old, very fast. His honor and bravery as a POW were unquestionable. If you have something new to add, then add it, but don't keep sniping on the same themes.
I suppose a partial no answer is as close to an answer as you can get.
You speak of Palin, but I hadn’t mentioned her. Then, in your tag line, you got it almost totally wrong too. Plenty of people who were not going to vote McCain are now going to because they believe that she makes up for all of McCain’s ‘sins’.
You’ve decided that the time for ‘third parties’ is now over for this election, so everyone should shut up? I may have said that I was going to vote third party, but I don’t recall so yet again, your reply is non-responsive.
How is asking questions being divisive? Where did I question his bravery or service? I questioned the report of him being close to death and his recovery without medical intervention.
Is ‘Hall Monitor’ a paid position or volunteer?
99% of the time I live and let live. God knows, plenty of my posts have been wrong or stupid or counterproductive. In one particular case I argued against the 2003 Iraq invasion even after it was decided (in late 2002). I was asked to stop arguing (well asked would be a nice word) because I was impacting troop morale. I stopped pretty soon after that.
I don't track trolls or newbies very often, don't have the time and nobody pays me to be here or do that. Maybe one time a year at most. I have occasionally called out a poster I thought was a troll and there was one occasion where I contributed to the banning of an obvious troll (much more obvious than you).
The reason I spoke of Palin is I checked your other posts to make sure you weren't bad mouthing her. There are still third party deadenders who are. You are not and that is good. Considering your posting history I do not think you are a troll (whew that must come as relief to you!)
With that kind of censorship there is always the danger of group-think. But I don't think that is a problem in this case, there are still plenty of reasonable arguments against McCain's specific positions. I just don't like innuendo such as your postings in this thread.
Ok, I changed my tagline a bit just to please you.
I am not preoccupied with that. I dismissed it as having any importance. You are just trying to make it seem like I am.
McCain mentioned it in his speech but did not elaborate and I do not know what it entailed, if anything.
What I don’t forgive him for is the legislation that he championed. He did his worst without any coercion or torture at all and while living in luxury.
I am the anti-PC and some people just can’t stand it. I don’t like spin and I don’t like lies from either side. When I see something that false, I call it out. When I see something questionable, I challenge it.
I am now no longer a Republican, but even when I was, I refused to support the “R”. I don’t believe that you get the best representation if you do that. If you forgive their bad votes — and reward them with your vote again — you don’t hold them to any standard at all. The only thing that pols pay attention to is the voter who has not climbed onto their bandwagon. Once you are aboard, they can forget about you.
If we hadn’t withheld our support from McCain, we wouldn’t have got Palin. Why would he give us anything when we were already on board if he could instead win other votes with other promises?
Relate this to any negotiation. If you accept the first offer, you will not get what you want. You have to say no and say it often. The fear of lose (a sale or an election) is a great motivator. If you hold out, they will give in. Always let the politician know that your vote is never to be taken for granted even if you have already decided that you will vote that way.
If we give in early then we are little different from the girl that ‘gives it up’ on the first date when there is no commitment from the man. They have to earn it. ;-)
Who, and what do they say little man?
You're an idiot.
Hey Weasel, what does your statement have to do with POW McCain?
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