The RAF bomber pilot who recovered the body of the co-pilot he lost on Berlin raid 60 years ago.

Daily Mail (UK) ^ | 10th October 2008 | Andrew Levy

[TomasUSMC]

An example of Semper Fidelis!

[tpanther]

Exactly, I think it was Sherman that said something like:

War is cruel and the crueler it is the quicker it’s over.

[VOA]

War is cruelty.
There’s no use trying to reform it,
the crueler it is the sooner it will be over.
William Tecumseh Sherman

(scroll down about 80-90% of the page to see quote)
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/w/william_tecumseh_sherman.html

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks for the comments folks. That’s what I like about FR. It works like one big collective mind.

Good quote, tells it like it is. I appreciate the mention.

[tpanther]

ahhhh Thank You!

[VOA]

RE: Dresden

The Dresden Legend
By Rebecca Grant
October 2004, Vol. 87, No. 10
Air Force Magazine
http://www.afa.org/magazine/oct2004/1004dresden.asp

in .pdf format:
http://www.afa.org/magazine/oct2004/1004dresden.pdf

[DoughtyOne]

Thank you VOA. I’ll check that out in the morning. I’ll make further comments after I do.

I appreciate the links.

[tpanther]

Thank You, reminds me...a few years back I made good friends with a WW2 vet. He’s a vet of the 8th AF, bombadier/navigator on a B-17, wonderful man. I took care of his wife until she died, I’m a hospice nurse.

I try to go and see him as much as I can. He’s 83 now.

Has LOT of insight on how liberals are destroying the country, his mind sharper than mine.

He had a cool bumpersticker a few years ago about getting rid of Daschle.

[Know et al]

My dad flew 30 combat missions during WW2. He flew B-24 Liberators. His crew was the fifth bomber over Normandy on D-day. He wrote a journal about the thirty missions. His crew observed reunions for years after the war.

All of his crew survived the war. There may be one or two alive today.

My dad said he saw a fighter hit by flack. The pilot bailed out successfully but the plane exploded shortly after he bailed. The wing fell on top of the airmans parachute. My dad said the last he saw of the pilot, the pilot and wing were spiraling toward the ground. You could tell it had a tremendous impact on him until the day he died in 1992. His voice was strained when he would talk about his experiences and that was a rare occurrence.

These men and women were truly the “Great Generation”.

God bless them all.

[Emperor Palpatine]

Thanks for that. My dad flew a B-17 on the Dresden raid.

His view was that the Germans started the war in Europe, and by God they were gonna stop it no matter what it took.

Oh, and civilians are a legitimate target in wartime. General Sherman proved that in his march through Georgia and South Carolina, which ended the Civil War several years earlier than it might have ended.

[DuncanWaring]

Those who say Japan would have surrendered without using nukes must be crazy.

Gen. LeMay said in his autobiography (Mission with LeMay) that between fire-bombing and mining the harbors, it might have been possible to force Japan to surrender.

He emphasized the "might".

By no means a sure thing.

[DoughtyOne]

You’re pulling me back to a thread from a while back, which I don’t mind at all. I’m just not sure what I’ve already said on the thread, so I’ll risk repeating myself rather than read it all over.

The U.S. was engaged in a bombing campaign at the end of the war that saw massive damage to many cities. Most people are aware that the U.S. used incendiary bombs on Tokyo. They may not be aware that the U.S. bombed many other large cities, destroy 50% or more in upwards of 50 to 100 different cities. (I don’t remember the actual number of cities, but it was 50 or more, and 100 sticks in my mind) A large portion of these cities were closer to total destruction than just 50%.

This they did before using nukes, and the Japanese government didn’t submit, or even hint they ever would. They were still saying it would be a fight to the last man.

What do you do when a nation shows such calloused disregard for their citizens, and states they’ll continue to fight?

I’ve seen comments from people involved in the war effort that nearly won me over to the idea that nukes didn’t need to be made. Then I saw a report on the bombing campaign on Japan that preceded the use of nukes, and it solidified my support for the use of the bomb.

I’m sure folks mean well when they say nukes may not have needed to be used, but I’m by no means convinced they’re right.

[DuncanWaring]

We had three possible options for ending the war with Japan:

1. Nuke.
2. Invade.
3. Blockade/starve.

Either of the last two would probably have worked, given enough time (years, possibly, in the case of the last).

The first choice, however, probably saved the lives of tens-of-millions of Japanese.

[DoughtyOne]

When you consider that we probably wreaked nuclear level havoc on 50 to 100 cities prior to Hiroshima and Nagasaki, I think your conclusion is undeniable.

The buildings at the time were mostly made of wood, and those cities were a tender box ready to burst into flames.

It’s a sad fact that there were no easy choices to end the war.

I don’t like the idea that nukes were used. I don’t like what would have happened if they hadn’t been used either.

War sucks. Japan made some incredibly bad decisions.

[DuncanWaring]

Roger that.

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks Duncan. Nice talking to you.

[DuncanWaring]

Likewise.

[DuncanWaring]

One more thing - here’s a description on what an invasion of the mainland of Japan (Operations Olympic and Coronet) would have actually involved:

http://www.webwizpro.com/1945InvasionofJapan.html

[DoughtyOne]

Thanks. That part in the red alone was something, but down below where it mentioned the closing of schools, the arming of the public and the fortification of Japan... wow.

Even the U.N. got it right back then.