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If Prop. 8 wins, Newsom will be scapegoated. But the recriminations should focus on Ronald George.
San Diego Union-Tribune ^ | October 28, 2008 | Chris Reed

Posted on 10/28/2008 6:33:09 PM PDT by nickcarraway

If Prop. 8 wins, Newsom will be scapegoated. But the recriminations should focus on Ronald George.

I voted against Proposition 8, just as I voted against Proposition 22 in 2000, on equality-under-the-law grounds. I hope the anti-gay-marriage constitutional amendment fails on Tuesday.

But I'm increasingly beginning to suspect it will pass. Backers have mounted a shrewdly framed TV ad campaign that doesn't have the harsh edge many expected from die-hard opponents of gay marriage. Its focus on the possibility that school kids might be taught about gay marriage has touched a chord among parents. (No, I don't think this claim is preposterous, given how our legal and education communities work. I just don't find the prospect particularly scary.)

Prop. 8's odds have also been greatly increased by vast donations pouring in from the country from cultural and religious conservatives who see the fight as pivotal to preventing gay marriage becoming the norm around the nation and even the world. Tony Perkins, president of the Family Research Council, told The New York Times that Prop. 8 was "more important than the presidential election."

So the stakes are high -- and the recriminations will be intense if Prop. 8 succeeds. I think San Francisco Mayor Gavin Newsom will be haunted forever by his braying, arrogant soundbite after the May state Supreme Court ruling declaring gay marriage legal in California: "The door's wide-open now. It's gonna happen, whether you like it or not!" It was off-the-charts smart for the pro-8 forces to replay the clip over and over in their ads.

For my money, though, any recriminations should focus on California Supreme Court Chief Justice Ronald George. This state was gradually moving toward a gay-marriage consensus. But it just wasn't there yet when George, in his own way, declared it's gonna happen, whether you like it or not.

I found George's legal reasoning to be sound and persuasive. But given his past moderation and unadventurousness, his decisive vote to impose gay marriage on California was deeply uncharacteristic. It may well have been principled. Yet given George's history, it looks far more like posturing for the history books than anything else.

There's a lot of that going on around at the highest levels of state government. The guy at the top of the executive branch (Arnold Schwarzenegger) hunted for global acclaim by signing sweeping, unprecedented climate-change legislation and by pushing a sweeping, unprecedented (and plainly illegal) health insurance mandate. The guy who used to be the most powerful leader of the legislative branch (Fabian Nunez) hunted for the same acclaim by working with Arnold on both his crusades.

This spring, it was the guy at the top of the state judicial branch's chance to bask in global acclaim -- and Ron George jumped at the opportunity. But he may have hurt the cause of gay marriage far more than he helped it.


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Extended News; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: California
KEYWORDS: anytwosomenewsom; california; caljudges; homosexualagenda; judges; judicialactivism; liberalism; moralabsolutes; moralrelativism; obamanation; prop8; proposition8; queerlybeloved; ronaldgeorge; samesexmarriage; sanfranciscovalues; sodomandgomorrah
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1 posted on 10/28/2008 6:33:10 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

I voted against prop 8. I believe it will be defeated. The recording of Newsom “whether you like it or not” played twice in the ad is very effective for people who don’t think very much; which in calif is the majority of the electorate.


2 posted on 10/28/2008 6:35:51 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nickcarraway

Here in Placer county about 1 out of 10 homes have a Yes on 8 sign in the yard and then the car stickers...I will win.


3 posted on 10/28/2008 6:36:58 PM PDT by sierrahome (Cuba got "Change" in 1959!)
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To: nufsed

Correction. I believe it will pass.


4 posted on 10/28/2008 6:38:01 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nufsed

But you did vote against it?


5 posted on 10/28/2008 6:39:12 PM PDT by Sans-Culotte
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To: nufsed

You voted against Prop 8?


6 posted on 10/28/2008 6:39:15 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nufsed

Your post doesn’t make sense. You say you think it will be defeated but also that the Newsom tape will convince the majority of voters to vote for Prop 8. Or am I reading you wrong?


7 posted on 10/28/2008 6:39:42 PM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things)
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To: nickcarraway

Yes, why would I vote to put the restriction of rights in the constitution? Contrary to pursuit of happiness and liberty.


8 posted on 10/28/2008 6:41:39 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nufsed
I voted against prop 8...

You voted against proposition 8? So that means you support same-sex marriage. If you are against same-sex marriage, you should have voted FOR proposition 8, like I did.
9 posted on 10/28/2008 6:42:22 PM PDT by Signalman
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To: nufsed
I voted against prop 8. I believe it will be defeated. The recording of Newsom “whether you like it or not” played twice in the ad is very effective for people who don’t think very much; which in calif is the majority of the electorate.

Strangely enough, by means of the worm hole that joins our two universes, I agree with you.

About the majority of the people in California not thinking very much. They re-elect the same legislature repeatedly, although they are hell-bent (pun intended) on bankrupting the once financially healthiest state in the entire country.

Welcome to FR.
Even pervert trolls are free to post on FR.
I wonder if I can do that on KOSonline or DU?

10 posted on 10/28/2008 6:42:23 PM PDT by Publius6961 (Change is not a plan; Hope is not a strategy.)
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To: sierrahome

Placer County is about the most conservative county in the state, but I do think it will win. There was a pro-8 rally at the Capitol today, and I heard there were a number of black preachers there. Odd that a lot of blacks and hispanics will go to the polls and vote yes on 8 and for Obama at the same time.


11 posted on 10/28/2008 6:42:36 PM PDT by Hugin (Mecca delenda est!)
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To: Publius6961

Haven’t seen any pervert trolls, but there’s always a first time. I’ll ping you if one comes along.


12 posted on 10/28/2008 6:43:59 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: Bobkk47
I am not for or against it. I am against using the state constitution to restrict the rights of people for no good reason.

I've read some threads here about threat to marriage and the sky is falling. But it's mostly fearmongering. My marriage is not threatened by any of this.

13 posted on 10/28/2008 6:46:03 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nickcarraway
I found George's legal reasoning to be sound and persuasive. But given his past moderation and unadventurousness, his decisive vote to impose gay marriage on California was deeply uncharacteristic. It may well have been principled. Yet given George's history, it looks far more like posturing for the history books than anything else.

Rose Bird suffered from the identical malady.

RIP.

14 posted on 10/28/2008 6:47:32 PM PDT by Publius6961 (Change is not a plan; Hope is not a strategy.)
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To: caseinpoint
I hope you read my correction. I voted against, but I believe it will pass.

People aren't ready for it so they want to stop it by putting a rights restriction in the constitution.

A bad thing to do IMO.

15 posted on 10/28/2008 6:47:41 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nufsed

I don’t mind gay life style as long as they don’t come to me after contracting AIDS and demanding that I do something about his/her health care costs. If any group does something stupid, creates a problem and demands for my tax dollars, then I as the payer have the rights to demand for limits as a precondition to head off future problems. If I was in CA I would vote for Prop 8 on the grounds of public health.


16 posted on 10/28/2008 6:47:42 PM PDT by Fee
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To: Hugin

A lot of christian preachers, black, hispanic and otherwise oppose it. Isn’t that what their religion says they should do?


17 posted on 10/28/2008 6:49:11 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nufsed

So...I guess you are great with pedophilia, prostitution, drugs, group marriages, etc? As long as it makes people happy?
If I had to make a wild guess, without researching it of course, I don’t think the Founding Fathers, who actually wrote the Constitution, would see it your way.


18 posted on 10/28/2008 6:50:01 PM PDT by IrishCatholic (No local communist or socialist party chapter? Join the Democrats, it's the same thing.)
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To: nufsed
Why would you bother voting if you don't believe Californians have the right to vote about what happens in their state? Californians voted overwhelmingly that they didn't want the state Constitution changed to allow for homosexual marriage. Then four appointed judges decided they were more important than democracy in California.

Why should we bother tto have initiatives or voting in California at all?

19 posted on 10/28/2008 6:50:19 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
Posted reply by Jenny. Pretty enlightened for democrat

I'm a liberal democrat, and support Prop 8. I've supported gay rights since I was a teenager, but over the past few years, I've had my eyes opened to the cold hard facts that the gay activists are more interested in grinding an axe against the religious, than any kind of equality. Today for example, reading comments to an article online, I read comments by gays waging the no on prop 8 battle online, shrilly excusing the attack against a man who was only handing out lawn signs outside of a church, by a gay man who tried to steal the signs. The comments included that the religious don't have rights, that they should get over it, and accept the fact that they would be challenged now at every turn and subject to derision. Those were the words of a person who is pickled in hatred, and a obsessive desire to persecute the religious. Not the words of an activist for civil rights, but a despot looking to trample the rights of others. I'd never expect a gay or lesbian to conform to a heterosexual norm, so why do so many of them demand that heterosexuals, especially religious heterosexuals, have to conform to theirs? Are they that blind to their own hypocrisy? Can't they understand that the religious have every right to protect their children, and raise them in their faith? So please understand that there are many of us who refuse to ignore what is little more than fascism, and a corruption of the gay rights movement. Our constitution and bill of rights are our protections. We've put up with the far right tampering with them, so we don't need the far left attempting to do the same. I've come to the conclusion that we can't afford another Clinton like presidency that will appoint judges who I've come to realize do not respect our rights and freedoms as much as seek to exploit them for their extremist agenda. I've decided to vote for a republican for the first time to prevent any further bleed to the left, and to punish my party for it's selling out the American people to the corporate and global elites.

Posted by: Jenny at October 28, 2008 06:01 PM

20 posted on 10/28/2008 6:52:46 PM PDT by Ouderkirk (I will not vote for Obama not because he is black, but because he is RED)
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To: Fee
Well I don't like the gay "lifestyle" much at all. I hate the parades and public flaunting and such. But most homosexuals are not doing that stuff. Many of them go to work and such. Tough to judge a whole group by extremist among them. Think about conservatism or liberals. Are we all like the most extreme?

I would think if more gays settle down, it would reduce promiscuity and perhaps reduce health problems. Could be good for them. Isn't being marruied supposed to extend life and be a healthy thing? Why wouldn't they want to marry if it's such a beneficial thing?

21 posted on 10/28/2008 6:52:53 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nufsed

What does the “pursuit of happiness and liberty,” mean? The Constitution means I have a right to anything that will add to my happiness?


22 posted on 10/28/2008 6:53:03 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nufsed

My happiness can be achieved by you buying me a new car. Can you please give me your email, so we can make arrangements for that. I wouldn’t want you violating my California Constitution right to happiness.


23 posted on 10/28/2008 6:54:28 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway
You're over generalizing. If I would be happy shooting someone, of course not.

Isn't that why most people get married? Happiness?

24 posted on 10/28/2008 6:55:06 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nufsed

Many people also are frustrated at activist judges making up the law as they go along.

In the case of marriage, everyone was already treated equally. Any eligible man can marry any eligible woman. And vice versa. Everyone is limited to one partner. Nobody can marry a sibling or certain other close relatives.

There is nothing about homosexuality in our existing family law. The law talks about men and women, not about sex orientation/identity, whatever the current politically correct term is. So based on the interpretation of the law, the judges clearly invented a right to homosexual marriage. There was no denial of anyone’s rights in the first place to justify the court ruling. Gay people can marry anyone of the opposite sex. I understand that they don’t want to, but the law doesn’t ban a lesbian female from marrying a male. Millions of single adults don’t want to get married either. Their rights aren’t being violated either, if they choose not to marry.

I’ve talked to a few people, some of whom are sympathetic about gay rights, but agree that the legal reasoning used is questionable, because of the fact that there was nothing about homosexuality in the law in the first place.


25 posted on 10/28/2008 6:56:14 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: nufsed
Haven’t seen any pervert trolls, but there’s always a first time. I’ll ping you if one comes along.

Don't bother.
I don't respond to pings.

Certainly not from anyone who can't grasp the distinction between "pursuit of happiness" and license.

26 posted on 10/28/2008 6:56:39 PM PDT by Publius6961 (Change is not a plan; Hope is not a strategy.)
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To: nufsed
Maybe you should read Stanley Kurtz' articles in National Review. Legalizing homosexual marriage & civil unions had a huge impact on "heterosexual" marriages. Marriage is a virtually meaningless institution in those countries. Couples don't get married after have 1 0r 2 children. (And they very rarely have more there)

Do you think it will be beneficial to end the institution of marriage in this country.

27 posted on 10/28/2008 6:58:55 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nickcarraway

What about Madame George ?


28 posted on 10/28/2008 6:59:29 PM PDT by ikka
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To: nufsed

I am voting for it. One does not do away with thousands of years of tradition with a 4-3 vote. The original “restriction” of marriage to one man and one woman was not necessary until groups started defining marriage as something other than that traditional concept. The proposition enshrines the traditional meaning. Sorry, but gay relationship didn’t need marriage to begin and won’t be stopped by not having marriage. You are aware that all the privileges of marriage in California are already in place for civil unions? It isn’t needed except to bludgeon the federal government and other states to accept that radical redefinition of marriage, and to further harass those who have personal objections to same-sex relationships.

By the way, I think—a lot, especially since I don’t watch television. I have heard the commercial on my way to work a couple of times but it didn’t sway me.


29 posted on 10/28/2008 7:00:21 PM PDT by caseinpoint (Don't get thickly involved in thin things)
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To: nufsed
Isn't that why most people get married? Happiness?

They can get "married" in any state in the union right now. All they have to do is find a minister (or whatever) to "marry" them. What they are after is more than that, though. They're after state recognition of their "marriages" so they can get government benefits and harness state power to force school textbooks to promote their "lifestyle" to kids, force private businesses, private landlords, etc. to rent to them, and so forth.

State recognition of same-sex "marriages" is an expansion of state power, not a contraction, and it results in a net loss of liberty for the population as a whole.

30 posted on 10/28/2008 7:00:38 PM PDT by puroresu (Enjoy ASIAN CINEMA? See my Freeper page for recommendations (updated!).)
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To: nufsed
Why wouldn't they want to marry if it's such a beneficial thing?

Maybe you should read up on it. Marriage is a beneficial thing- but only when you do it the right way. It didn't work out for O.J. & Nicole, or Scott & Laci.

31 posted on 10/28/2008 7:00:56 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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Comment #32 Removed by Moderator

To: nufsed

I think you are “over generalizing.” Just because the California Constitution mentions a right to happiness means anything anyone wants it to mean?


33 posted on 10/28/2008 7:03:15 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Ouderkirk

Jenny, can I call you? Is your number 867-5309?

Just joking..........

Seriously, Jenny is an intellectually honest liberal. She doesn’t want to see the gay agenda being forced on society, though she wants all to have their individual rights. It seems to me that on this marriage issue, there is far more hatred coming from the left than the right. The conservatives do not hate the activists who are pushing same sex marriage. They disagree with it as a social policy, but don’t hate anyone. Whereas it sure sounds like all too often, that the activists/leftists are expressing hatred towards any who disagree with them.

This happens on other issues too. The left seems so angry about everything that they perceive that is wrong with America, that they have never ever considered all that is right with America, and how their lives are good precisely because of all that is good with America.


34 posted on 10/28/2008 7:03:28 PM PDT by Dilbert San Diego
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To: nickcarraway

Face it, Chris. Gavin Newsom’s performance on that tape shows a smugness and arrogance that’s pandemic in California’s left. He just put a face and voice to it.


35 posted on 10/28/2008 7:04:20 PM PDT by RichInOC ("The door's wide open! It's gonna happen! Whether ya like it or not!"--Gavin Newsom)
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To: nufsed

If you did ANY homework, you would have found that they already have all the rights we do. With people like you, we sure don’t need enemies.


36 posted on 10/28/2008 7:04:41 PM PDT by freeplancer (McCain Voters Catch the Lobsters-Obama Voters Eat Them)
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To: nickcarraway
"Backers have mounted a shrewdly framed TV ad campaign that doesn't have the harsh edge many expected from die-hard opponents of gay marriage. Its focus on the possibility that school kids might be taught about gay marriage has touched a chord among parents. (No, I don't think this claim is preposterous, given how our legal and education communities work. I just don't find the prospect particularly scary.)"

You may not think it scary, Chris, but millions of parents in CA can look to MA to see how it would work. A First Grader came home talking about the teacher reading a story about a handsome Prince who dint not want to marry a Princess at all, but another man. When the father politely asked the school that their son NOT have to listen to that type of story, but be taken out of the group until after the story and it's 'explanation' by the teacher have finished, that father was villified in the press in his town. Later, when he tried to attend a function at the school, he was arrested and ordered not to set foot on the school grounds again, under threat of another arrest.

I don't think many parents in CA will be too thrilled to hear of this jack-booted attitude among the homosexual activists.

37 posted on 10/28/2008 7:04:54 PM PDT by SuziQ
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To: nufsed
I am not for or against it.

Ah! You're voting "present".

38 posted on 10/28/2008 7:06:20 PM PDT by Tanniker Smith (Teachers open the door. It's up to you to enter. Before the late bell. When I close the door.)
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To: IrishCatholic
I can't respond fast enough to all the questions.

I am not an advocate of changing the contract laws or the age of majority to allow adults to have sex with children.

If you're engaging in a behavior with some one else, it would not make them very happy if you forced them to do something so you could be happy. We assume children are vulnerable to adult manipulation and force and we protect them.

Regarding the other things, you tell me why they should be outlawed. In a free country you should justify your position not those who advocate freedom. Government power and restriction should be justified. Odd, that I would have to explain that on a conservative site.

39 posted on 10/28/2008 7:06:48 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nickcarraway

My 18 addresses your question. If you didn’t get married to be happy, I feel sorry for you.


40 posted on 10/28/2008 7:07:58 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: Publius6961

FYI, the elected officials did not strike down the people’s vote, four activist judges did. What part of being conservative are actual in favor of?


41 posted on 10/28/2008 7:08:10 PM PDT by freeplancer (McCain Voters Catch the Lobsters-Obama Voters Eat Them)
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To: freeplancer
"freaking democrap butt boy"

Three strikes.

If supporting liberty and the pursuit of happeness make me a lowlife, put me at the top of your list.

42 posted on 10/28/2008 7:09:15 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nufsed
Marriage is NOT a private personal thing.

When being married gets you governmental benefits of any kind, it is no longer private.

That said, I equate gay marriage with polygamy, interspecies marriage, intergenerational marriage, multiple spouses marrying multiple spouses, and any other 'arrangement' the degenerates of our society care to put together.

If marriage means anything, it means nothing. Current law lets any arrangement get legal rights if they choose to. Prop 8 is about making the concept of marriage obsolete.

43 posted on 10/28/2008 7:10:11 PM PDT by Lizavetta
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To: freeplancer

Then why would you vote to restrict them? Apparently, if you have your way, they won’t have the same rights as the rest of the adult taxpayers.


44 posted on 10/28/2008 7:10:34 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nickcarraway
Prop. 8's odds have also been greatly increased by vast donations pouring in from the country from cultural and religious conservatives...

Actually, the reverse is true, "Prop. 8's odds have also been greatly diminished by vast donations pouring in from the country from cultural and religious liberals".

Ron George, and his cohorts, need to be removed from office by the voters at the earliest opportunity.

45 posted on 10/28/2008 7:10:45 PM PDT by TheDon
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To: nufsed
Isn't that why most people get married? Happiness?

No, I don't believe that most people get married for, "happiness." Have you ever met a person who said they got married for, "happiness." You really don't understand marriage at all. Marriage is a social institution to help order society, and it is most important for raising children. I checked a few dictionaries as well, and I didn't see anything about happiness.

Marriage means a lot of responsibility and not putting a participants needs or desires first. Now, hopefully, marriage will result in happiness, but that's not guaranteed, and it is most likely the result of a lot of work and unselfishness.

46 posted on 10/28/2008 7:11:03 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: nufsed

If marriage is a right, what does the state of California owe me? I am a single, heterosexual man, who is not married. If I have a right to get married, how do I exercise my right to get married?


47 posted on 10/28/2008 7:13:05 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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To: Lizavetta
Your second sentence defeats your argument. If it brings governmenmt benefits, then you can't unnecessarily restrict the access to those benefits. The government has to provide them equally. You have heard of equal access?

I don't understand your logic. Expanding those who can marry makes the concept obsolete.

Explain that to my wife, she wants to renew our option. : )

48 posted on 10/28/2008 7:13:43 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nickcarraway
I see you are unable to counter my previous points.

As for your new question and change of direction, may I suggest e-harmony.com.

49 posted on 10/28/2008 7:14:43 PM PDT by nufsed
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To: nufsed

I did answer your previous questions, see my post. I have never seen anything written in history that the purpose of marriage is, “happiness.” Please provide me with something authoritative that says otherwise. As well, I told you about the research in other countries that shows when homosexual marriage or civil unions start, heterosexual marriage becomes meaningless.


50 posted on 10/28/2008 7:17:44 PM PDT by nickcarraway
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