Posted on 11/14/2008 2:37:10 PM PST by PeteePie
I had some atheists in my PLT. When it came time for a prayer for whatever reason, they remained quiet and respectful of those around them. No one judged them for their beliefs (or lack of them, I guess), we finished our prayer, we went on about our business, and that was that. These folks are just trying to make waves for the sake of making waves. Pure trouble-makers. I’m finding more and more in the “soft skills” area of the Army that there are many such types. I miss the Infantry.
Actually it is not the original White House that one was pink and burnt down by the Canadians. And this country is not founded on god.
Really!!
Chrstianity became the official religion of the NEW Roman Empire after the fall of Pagan Rome, which was in a state of internal collapse. Emperor Constantine the Great converted to the Catholic faith (of his Mother, Saint Helena) after the death of Emporor Diocletian, and reversed his predecessor’s persecution of the Christian Church. Constantine issued the Edict of Milan in 313, which proclaimed religious toleration throughout the empire.
As far as the quote from Madison, I will not debate the absurdity at this point, other than to place the remark in the category of his own ignorance and bigotry, typical of the period to those who held to the opinions of Free Masonry...
Excerpted from a 6/90 Media Spotlight Special Report - “A Masonic History of America,” by Al Dager:
There is much speculation on the religious nature of the United States of America as it was founded. Many Christians assert that the United States was founded as a Christian nation and, therefore, it is not only our right but our duty to reclaim it for God. But is America a Christian nation in the true sense of the word?
To call anyone or anything “Christian,” whether an individual or a nation, certain criteria must be met. If we are speaking of an individual, the Biblical requirements are that he must be born again by the Spirit of God, understanding all that this entails.
If we are speaking of a nation, its purpose must be that of ministry in the name of Jesus Christ alone, without regard to any other gods. Its primary charter must be the Bible, and all who hold positions of authority must be individuals who meet the criteria necessary to call themselves Christians. A true Christian nation would be a theocracy governed by God through His prophets. His law would reign supreme in the hearts and minds of that nation’s founders, and all who founded the nation would have to meet the criteria necessary to call themselves Christians. Just as important, the nation would have to have been created in response to a covenant initiated by God with those who founded it.
As a point of information, the Pilgrims did not found the United States; they founded a small colony that eventually got swallowed up by the states and the newly formed federal government.
The belief that the Mayflower Compact was the basis for a Christian nation has caused many to attempt to reestablish what never existed: a Christian nation based upon Biblical precepts and founded upon a covenant relationship with God. What is overlooked is that the Mayflower Compact reaffirmed loyalty to the King of England; its framers never intended to found an independent state.
Ignoring, and even twisting the facts of history, “Christian” dominionists quote some of the founding fathers whose words seem to indicate faith in Jesus Christ. But many quoted were Freemasons who highly regarded Jesus as a man who attained the highest degree of moral enlightenment.
The words of many Freemasons might lead the uninformed to believe that they are true brethren in Christ. An example is this statement from a Masonic publication:
“God may have other words for other worlds, but His supreme Word for this world, yesterday, today, forever, is Christ! He is the central Figure of the Bible, its crown, its glory, its glow-point of vision and revelation. Take Him away and its light grows dim. He fulfilled the whole Book, its history, its poetry, its prophecy, its ritual, even as He fulfills our deepest yearning and our highest hope. Ages have come and gone, but He abides-abides because He is real, because he is unexhausted, because He is needed. Little is left today save Christ-Himself smitten and afflicted, bruised of God and wounded-but He is all we need. If we hear Him, follow Him, obey Him, we shall walk together in a new world wherein dwelleth righteousness and love-He is the Word of God” (Joseph Fort Newton, ‘The Great Light in Masonry,’ Little Masonic Library, Vol. 3, p. 177).
Unless we recognize that the theosophical philosophy of Freemasonry attributes its own definitions to Biblical language, we won’t understand the author’s meaning. We might welcome him as one of our own.
Only the most naive would not know that many who claim to be Christians do not meet the required criteria. Such is the case with Freemasons. While Freemasonry has an outward show of religious faith, the tenets of Freemasonry preclude any truly born-again believer from belonging.
Space doesn’t allow for a full treatise on Freemasonry’s religious philosophy, but true Christians will recognize from another statement in the same publication that the Faith is not compatible with Freemasonry:
“Into Freemasonry have been poured the irradiations of the mystical schools of antiquity. Particularly is this so in the higher degrees of the Order, such as the Scottish Rite, where undeniable traces of Cabalism, neo-Platonism, Rosicrucianism, and other mystical cults are plainly discernible. I do personally contend that Freemasonry is the direct descendent of the Mysteries, but that our ritual makers of the higher degrees have copied the ancient ceremonies of initiation so far as the knowledge of those ceremonies exists” (Henry R. Evans, A History of the York and Scottish Rites of Freemasonry, p. 8).
Because most Christians today are unaware of the manner in which Christianity was melded with the esoteric philosophies of theosophy and Jewish Cabalism to produce a hybrid mystery religion known as Freemasonry, they offer quotes from many of our founding fathers as evidence that they were Christians. Indeed, some were even clerics. But just as one of today’s most famous clerics, Norman Vincent Peale, was a Freemason (prelate of the Grand Encampment of the Knights Templar of the United States), many of the nation’s founding fathers were also Freemasons who used peculiar definitions of Biblical language in asserting their beliefs.
This is not to say that they were not noble men. Freemasons pride themselves in their noble attitudes and adherence to strict moral codes. These are not “evil” men in the classical sense. But they are blinded to the true revelation of God’s Word, and their religious philosophy embraces all religions as valid. To be a Freemason, one must believe in a supreme being, but he need not be a Christian.
Based upon the evidence of Masonic influences in the establishment of this nation, there is no doubt that the criteria necessary to classify the United States as a Christian nation were not met. An objective study of the Masonic affiliations of the founding fathers must cause Christians to reevaluate their own political philosophy. For if the United States is not a Christian nation then we must choose to whom we will commit “our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor” — our Lord or our country.
SIGNERS OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE
Known Masons (8): Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Joseph Hewes, William Hooper, Robert Treat Payne, Richard Stockton, George Walton, William Whipple
Evidence of Membership And/or Affiliations (7): Elbridge Berry, Lyman Hall, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Nelson Jr., John Penn, George Read, Roger Sherman
Summary: 15 of 56 Signers were Freemasons or probable Freemasons.
It’s true that this represents only 27% of the total signers. But this 27% included the principle movers of the Revolution, most notably Benjamin Franklin and Thomas Jefferson, the primary authors of the Declaration. The former was a Freemason, the latter a deist and possible Freemason. If one were to analyze the Declaration, he would see the humanistic influences.
In any event, there is no evidence that even 27% of the signers were true Christians. In considering whether or not this is a Christian nation, it isn’t the number of Masons that is as important as is the number of founders overall who were non-believers.
SIGNERS OF THE CONSTITUTION
Known Masons (9): Gunning Bedford, Jr., John Blair, David Brearly, Jacob Broom, Daniel Carrol, John Dickinson, Benjamin Franklin, Rufus King, George Washington
Evidence of Membership And/or Affiliations (13): Abraham Baldwin, William Blount, Elbridge Gerry, Nicholas Gilman, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, John Lansing, Jr., James Madison, George Mason, George Read, Robert Morris, Roger Sherman, George Wythe
Those Who Later Became Masons (6): William Richardson Davie, Jr., Jonathan Dayton, Dr. James McHenry, John Francis Mercer, William Patterson, Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer
Summary: 28 of 40 signers were Freemasons or possible Freemasons based on evidence other than Lodge records.
MASONIC INFLUENCES IN EARLY AMERICAN HISTORY
- Lafayette, French liaison to the Colonies, without whose aid the war could not have been won, was a Freemason.
- The majority of the commanders of the Continental Army were Freemasons and members of “Army Lodges.”
- Most of Washington’s Generals were Freemasons.
- The Boston Tea Party was planned at the Green Dragon Tavern, also known as the “Freemasons’ Arms,” and “the Headquarters of the Revolution.”
- George Washington was sworn in as the first President of the United States by Robert Livingston, Grand Master of New York’s Masonic Lodge. The Bible on which he took his oath was from his own Masonic lodge.
- The Cornerstone of the Capital building was laid by the Grand Lodge of Maryland.
Even if the initiators of the Revolution had been Christians, the fact remains that the Revolutionary War and the nation’s government were structured by the tenets of Freemasonry, not God’s Word. It was an unholy alliance at best.
Scripture tells us that God has made one nation of all: the Church. It is the Church that is our “Christian nation,” not the social and political institutions of the world.
We can thank our heavenly Father that we enjoy the freedoms that this republic grants us. But as citizens of Heaven, our allegiance is first to our brethren in foreign countries. Otherwise, we may find ourselves killing true Christians for political causes.
We must be vigilant to the dangers of becoming embroiled in political and social causes in the name of Christ. Else we will find ourselves unequally yoked, storing up for ourselves wood, hay, and stubble for the day of judgment.
“...I still prefer the results of The Enlightenment to those of the Inquisition.”
Your ignorance is profound, particularly in regard to your false but typical perception of the “Inquisition” which is based more on conventional here-say than on the historical facts of what occurred during that period, and, more importantly, why.
However, please answer me this: On what basis do you make any moral decision?
Since those absolute tenets established by God are not available to you, by definition of what you believe, then on what foundation are you able to build any edifice of moral guidance? Your reasoning process is no more stable than dust in the wind.
Under your atheistic illusions, all absolutes are mere subjective rules, which one may redefine at will, since nothing of a higher supreme objective intelligence may be referred for their final authority. Under such a philosophical system, there exists no basis for right and wrong; there exists no foundation from which to support natural law... that which guarantees the liberty of men. In other words, without God, there remains no inhibition against one man doing what he may will to another, no rational reason to oppose such treatment, and no suitable defense to ensure any rights established.
The natural result of Atheism is the communist state... where all manner of barbaric practice may be justified, if such serves the needs of the state.
Your belief, propagated to its natural end, would be the cause of your own undoing.
It always amazes me that people feel they need some invisible sky daddy in order be good,to know right from wrong. I already feel what is right or wrong, I do not like hurting others, I do not harass those with different beliefs or ideas, I like to do nice things. And not because I think I have to or else.
From what I have seen and experienced, the religious are meaner than atheist/agnostics.
To bad we couldn’t just chill out and live our lives and not force our individual beliefs on others.
“It always amazes me that people feel they need some invisible sky daddy in order be good, to know right from wrong. I already feel what is right or wrong, ...”
Where did you get the sense to “feel” in your heart right from wrong? How do you “know” the difference? It is not cultural, because all humans sense the “natural law” despite their cultures. The natural law is imprinted on their hearts by Him who created us.
For example: All men “know” in their hearts that it is wrong to kill innocent life. True, some may sere their consciences from the natural deterrent; but from where does this innate sense of morality (natural law) find its prime mover, its FIRST CAUSE?
You are being intellectually dishonest if you think man determined the natural law by his own intellect or of his own volition. The world around us is evidence of that much.
“From what I have seen and experienced, the religious are meaner than atheist/agnostics.”
Then I would guess that your life experience is very limited, your knowledge of world history is rather shallow, or else you are very naive. And, here I will remark only of the Christian Creed: being “religious” is not equivalent to “practicing” the tenets of the Christian Faith.
Explaining away the biological, psychological and sociological influences to what makes us “moral”, with, “God made us this way”, is the simple way of looking at everything. Some people do not feel this need, and they take interest in exploring life, a zest that takes them places they never thought of, it is a fun and amazing world! More so than, “God did it.”
You wrote: “Then I would guess that your life experience is very limited, your knowledge of world history is rather shallow, or else you are very naive. And, here I will remark only of the Christian Creed: being “religious” is not equivalent to “practicing” the tenets of the Christian Faith.”
My life experiences have helped to form me as the person I’am today. I have traveled extensively, lived and met with many people of many faiths and cultures. I will never know everything and that is fine with me, because it gives me a life time of exploration and fun.
Well said. This is an all volunteer force. If they cannot deal with organized religion in their fragile presence, then I say let them finish their enlistments and/or resign their commissions and be done with them.
Morals do not come from human experience. Humans are not by design moral beings.
Very gracious of you to allow them to finish their tours and not toss them out summarily as some posters here have suggested.
Resigning for cause is not “tossing them out”.
I don’t know what if any service you have, because your profile is blank, but here is the thing.
Many people leave the service for many reasons. Many left when Bill Clinton was elected, many will leave because of Bambi. Many leave because they can no longer put up with what they perceive as PC BS.
Some leave for family reasons, some for jobs in the private sector. My point is that instead of bitching about religion in the military, just resign and find yourself a nice little community of like-minded militant non-believers and leave the rest of us alone.
How about making life intolerable for anyone who wants to defend his country, but isn't quite the right kind of Christian. Is that okay? Say a Christian who might run afoul of this poster. Who should get out, you or the person who's going to pound his personal version of Christianity into your worthless skull until it caves in?
I don’t know what if any service you have, because your profile is blank, but here is the thing.
Not that it makes a difference in the point I was making, but I was in the Navy when it wasn't fashionable, 1973 - 1976. My midshipman training cruise included an opposed landing in Vietnam. If my service wasn't good enough for you, I think you know where you can go.
My point is that instead of bitching about religion in the military, just resign and find yourself a nice little community of like-minded militant non-believers and leave the rest of us alone.
I suggest you begin a religious test for people who want to join the service. That will have the advantage of bringing U.S. policy more into line with that of our terrorist foes. Of course, you'll have to change the inconvenient parts of the Constitution, but what the hell ... you're doing God's work.
Jeeze, did you forget to take your medication?
How about if you do not assume I have a personal version of Christianity, and I won’t assime you are a militant, bitter non-believer with an agenda.
I did not say that your service was not good enough for me, I said you have nothing on your profile to indicate that you served, THUS, I explained my position to you in a reasonable manner. If you want to bitch about this issue, then post something on your profile, and no one will HAVE TO GUESS.
Have a nice day!
No, but even if I had, Lipitor doesn't have much of an effect on my posts.
How about if you do not assume I have a personal version of Christianity, and I won’t assime[sic] you are a militant, bitter non-believer with an agenda.
I wasn't posting that about you; if you'd clicked on the link I provided you would have noticed it was to another FR post in which a poster who appears to have a personal version of Christianity also has a need to force feed it to junior military personnel.
I did not say that your service was not good enough for me, I said you have nothing on your profile to indicate that you served, THUS, I explained my position to you in a reasonable manner. If you want to bitch about this issue, then post something on your profile, and no one will HAVE TO GUESS.
What else do I owe you before I can post here? And if I had had no service at all, so what?
Have a nice day!
You, too. No interest in the issue at hand? No reaction to the link I posted about mandatory Christian instruction under cover of authority?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.