Posted on 11/26/2008 6:27:02 AM PST by NYer
We are in a new age of Martyrs.
If you read the link, it confirms what I said. They reject Chalcedon, and believe in the “One Nature”
This report made me sick to my stomach.
Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologus had it right when he said: “Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”
I think this will clarify the issue. The contention that the Coptic Orthodox embraced Nestorian heresy arose from misunderstanding between the Catholic/Eastern Orthodox & Oriental Orthodox over the meaning of terms used.
This is from Joint Declaration of 1984 between
Patriarch of Rome and the Patriarch of Antioch (Syrian Orthodox, which is also an Oriental Orthodox church) at which the following Joint Communique was signed by the Holy Fathers:
“Hence we wish to reaffirm solemnly our profession of common faith in the Incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ, as Pope Paul Vl and Patriarch Moran Mor Ignatius Jacoub III did in 1971. They denied that there was any difference in the faith they confessed in the mystery of the Word of God made flesh and become truly man. In our turn we confess that, He became incarnate for us, taking to himself a real body with a rational soul. He shared our humanity in all things except sin. We confess that our Lord and our God, our Saviour and the King of all, Jesus Christ, is perfect humanity. In Him His divinity is united to His humanity. This union is real, perfect, without blending or mingling, without confusion, without alteration, without division, without the least separation. He who is God eternal and indivisible, became visible in the flesh and took the form of servant. In him are united, in a real, perfect indivisible and inseparable way, divinity and humanity, and in Him all their properties are present and active. “
The full statement along with other Ecumenical statements can be found here. http://sor.cua.edu/Ecumenism/RC.html
ADDING LINKS:
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023669.php
(AINA)
November 26, 2008
“20,000 Muslims attack Christian church in Egypt”
#
Previously...
http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/023655.php
(ALMASRY-ALYOUM.com)
November 25, 2008
“Egypt: 13 Injured in Clashes between Muslims and Christians”
#
http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/archives/023636.php
(DAILY MAIL.co.uk)
November 25, 2008
“Egypt: Muslims oppose Coptic church gathering, shout ‘We’re going to knock down the church’”
The Eastern Orthodox Church has not changed their position.
Unless the Copts accept the Formula of Chalcedon, they are outside of the faith. The Pope does not have the authority to overturn the decrees of an Ecumenical Council.
Words are important. Three words “and the Son” caused the Great Schism of 1054 AD, and until just recently, were a serious barrier to future relations between the West & East.
I disagree with you as I certainly do think the Pope has the authority to tell Catholic believers if another church is or is not teaching heresy. Since it is clear by the document and other writings by the Coptic Orthodox Pope that the Copts do believe that Jesus is fully human and fully divine and that these two are perfectly united they are not Nestorian. I honestly believe the accusation of heresy arose from a misunderstanding of what each church meant by the terms they used to describe their theology.
The Copts believe in the Hypostatic Union and condemn both Arian and Nestorian heresy.
But I think this discussion is taking the original thread off track. So I will close now. I would love to hear from a Orthodox Copt. And I agree with you on the importance of words. Which is why it is so essential to understand what meaning words have to different people.
I hope you have a great Thanksgiving. PS: Are you Eastern Orthodox?
Yes, I am. The Pope has authority to do many things, but even in the Roman Catholic Church he cannot overturn the pronouncements of an Ecumenical Council. I agree with you that at least on the surface it LOOKS as if they do believe what we do, but as they still refuse to accept Chalcedon, I would be leery.
A Happy Thanksgiving to you as well! :)
I am also Eastern Orthodox, Tex.
No offense, but I don't think that the Muslims who are attacking these Copts are doing so because "they don't accept the Council of Chalcedon". The Muslims are doing it because they can -- because they know that the Copts are vulnerable.
Some of the oldest Christian monasteries in the world are in Egypt, and that is the inheritance of the whole Christian Church, not just the Copts.
It is one thing to differentiate ourselves as Christians in terms of dogma and "correct belief". It's something else to divorce ourselves from the suffering of other Christians at the hands of Muslims because by doing so, we think that we have no obligation to save or protect them because "they are not like us", leaving us with the incorrect assumption that "we are safe".
This persecution of Christians would bother me just as much if these Copts were Southern Baptists or Pentecostals, because there, but for the Grace of God, go I.
Don’t get me wrong. I agree with you. I just got off on a side discussion. The Muslims could careless about our disagreements.
Actually, Muslims exploit our differences & disagreements in the old game of "Divide and Conquer".
I've been to Egypt twice. The first time in 1984 and the second time in 2000. The difference between those two visits was huge.
The first visit, Egyptian tourism couldn't wait to show you their Christian legacy -- the Hanging Church in Cairo, St Anthony's Monastery (the world's oldest) and St. Catherine's Monastery at the foot of Mt. Sinai.
But the second visit, all the religious sights offered were Islamic ones. You had to ask to view Christians sites by name, and even then, it was less than encouraged.
I talked to some of the Copts there. It's bad -- and its gotten even worse since then. Copts are scapegoated for the Muslims frustration with the Mubarek regime, even though they have nothing to do with it. Likewise, they also get accused of being "Israeli spies", even though they have nothing to do with Israel.
The first trip to Egypt, I loved it and couldn't wait to go back. Second trip, I couldn't wait to get out of there and would never go back.
My next door neighbor is actually an Egyptian Christian whose family came to the US 35 years ago -- they got out for the same reasons. As Egyptian Christians, they felt they were second class citizens, even back then.
I think we have reached a happy agreement. I would love for those misunderstanding which truly arise out of differences in intent and meaning to be corrected so that we may truly be reconciled to each other. So that we may better give glory to God and be true witnesses to the Gospel. I don’t want to give a pass to heresy nor do I think schism is worse than heresy.
And to be honest I believe very strongly that Western Christianity has forgotten the place the Eastern fathers once held in the Church. And though Catholic theology does include teaching on original sin that is more in line with the Eastern Church’s theology I think it gets shunted aside. And the prevalent view remains that Christ death’s main purpose was to take on our punishment for it.
When we forget that Christ also died to restore us to the Father and to make us new creatures I think we are danger in losing the hope which all Christians have been promised.
I have said often that the best and only way to solve these disagreements is when the entire Church, both East & West convenes another Ecumenical Council, with the Pope once again taking his position as Primus Inter Pares, and then as of old, agreements can be reached. That is my hope! :)
The Copts are Monophysites, not Nestorians. The Assyrians are the Nestorians.
"Oriental Orthodox" is what the Monophysites call themselves. The Copts and Ethiopians are both Monophysites. As a matter of fact until about 1959 the Ethiopian Church was under the authority of the Coptic Pope.
The Copts, Ethiopians, Syrians, Indian Jacobites, and Armenians are all Monophysites. There are only two Nestorian churches left in the world: the Ancient Church of the East (made up of Assyrians) and the Holy Apostolic Catholic Assyrian Church of the East (Assyrians and Indian Nestorians).
Thanks, I realized my error after I had posted. And thanks for the update on Nestorian churches.
Correct. I caught my own mistake, but couldn’t edit... :)
I really wish FR had an "edit" feature, but I suppose the mods have a good reason for not having one.
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