Church not a political player, but it must promote human dignity, says Holy Father

CatholicNewsAgency ^ | Vatican City, Dec 5, 2008

[MarkBsnr]

***NB, only a very weak faith or religion needs to fear the government, whether of the right or the left. Look to the Roman Catholic and Orthodox people of Eastern Europe, the Balkans and Russia for examples of how a strong Faith prevails in the face of tyranny.***

Good point.

[MarkBsnr]

***His Holiness also happens to think unrestrained capitalism is a system of social injustice that promotes secular values and greed. How do American Catholics reconcile this? ***

Rather poorly, I’m afraid. I think that a lot of American Catholics hold diametrically opposing ideas such as capitalism and socialism, and the sanctity of life and the right to die/abortion. That, too, is mostly held by the liberation theology generation, which is on its way out.

***Are we willing to give up an entire paycheck and cut our family income by as much as 50% in order to have mom at home raise the kids? (How many college-educatred, profesisonal women are ready to give up their edcation and professional life to do that?) ***

My wife has a degree in English Literature from the University of Michigan. We are one example. Colleen has been home with all of our 5 kids from birth. We do not buy into this culture of acquisition.

***No doubt, some families do. Dad takes a second job, and a PhD mom stays at home, cooks and raises the kids. But I think most people nowadays don’t fit that pattern or are willing to throw away years of their education that easily.***

It hasn’t been thrown away. She will re-enter the work force when all the kids are at school but not until. She and I are adamant that the children are the focus of our marriage, and not each other or ourselves. Marriage is not 50-50. It is 90-10 both ways.

***Democrats will occasionally pay lip service to
It says something about the values of at least half of Americans, doesn’t it? Are we becoming strangers in our own home?***

Some of the nominal Catholics are.

[GonzoII]

“I am told that I am a walking object lesson in exactly that! :)”

—

Maybe we should start a new caucus. LOL.

[Desdemona]

His Holiness also happens to think unrestrained capitalism is a system of social injustice that promotes secular values and greed. How do American Catholics reconcile this?

By employing morality in action. Official church teaching, which was revealed LONG before the 20th century, is that the most just economic system is one that is fair to all being a free market system where man can work according to his talents and abilities for profit. With this system, one must contribute to the common good what he can afford and where it is most needed (that would be to charity) all while ethically going about business (no cheating, lying in advertising, propagandizing falsely, etc.). That doesn't sound like what we now know as socialism to me. BXVI didn't come up with this. This is the way it's been for centuries. The way republics like Venice ran. We need to get back to it, truth be told.

Please, remember that in the Church we are fighting a battle with an element that is very ignorant of Church teaching and history and that excise segments of encyclicals with "bottom lines" without reading the underlying reasoning - or the rest of the sentence sometimes. We have a lot of CINOs passing themselves off as devout, practicing Catholics, when the general population cannot tell the difference. And people are often too lazy to care. So, things aren't always what they seem. Satan is the father of lies and unfortunately, this is a topic that's been one of his victims.

[kosta50]

My wife has a degree in English Literature from the University of Michigan. We are one example. Colleen has been home with all of our 5 kids from birth. We do not buy into this culture of acquisition

The people on Religion Forum like this one most probably represent a more traditional profile than the rest of the country, so you can't take yourselves as the "representative" examples.

Without trying to take away the sacrifice many households make for one parent to be home and raise children in traditional values, fiscally sound decisions are often the reason behind one spouse staying home than traditional family values.

Many of those who raise their kids with one spouse at home do so because of prohibitive daycare costs where one of the spouse's salaries may well be spent in excess for such services. Logic simply forces one to say "it's cheaper for me to stay home than for me to work."

The usual alternative to a supplemental income is for the husband to get a second job, which often leads to other problems. Those who professionals can perhaps get by on a single income, but a wife with a professional degree may lose her skills if she is not involved in her profession to meet the minimum requirements of a particular license.

We must think of average Americans, and their average income, which is not really that high. According to the US Census Bureau:

"Real median household income remained unchanged between 2002 and 2003 in three of the four census regions — Northeast ($46,742), Midwest ($44,732) and West ($46,820). The exception was the South, where income declined 1.5 percent. The South continued to have the lowest median household income of all four regions ($39,823)."

Statistics simply don't support the notion that single-working member families are all that common. In fact, it is about 1 in every 4.

Only 19.2% of the families are husband-only employed, and 5.4% wife-only. These are 2000 Bureau of Labor Statistics data.

In 2000, both spouses worked in 64.2% of the families or 2 out of every 3 housholds!

[kosta50]

By employing morality in action

Agree.

Official church teaching, which was revealed LONG before the 20th century, is that the most just economic system is one that is fair to all being a free market system where man can work according to his talents and abilities for profit

Care to show me who taught that in the Church and when?

With this system, one must contribute to the common good what he can afford and where it is most needed

You mean like all the extravagant luxury we find in various churches today, the gold and diamonds and pomp? Or do you mean the system of selling indulgences so that Rome's cathedrals can be built according to the "every time the sound of a coin hitting the colleciton box rings, a soul from the Purgatory sprigs" economic system?

That doesn't sound like what we now know as socialism to me

For sure.

The way republics like Venice ran. We need to get back to it, truth be told

Why don't you tell us how the Dodges of Venice ran their Republic?

Please, remember that in the Church we are fighting a battle with an element that is very ignorant of Church teaching and history and that excise segments of encyclicals with "bottom lines" without reading the underlying reasoning - or the rest of the sentence sometimes

Oh, yes, it's that "infiltration from the Left theory." That must be it/s.

We have a lot of CINOs passing themselves off as devout, practicing Catholics, when the general population cannot tell the difference

And what is by your definition a true Catholic, and to what degree must one be "true" to be true? Is it 40, 50, 75, 90 percent, and who makes that rule? Do you obey all the Church demands? And is it not up to God to decide who is a true Catholic and who is a CINO?

people are often too lazy to care. So, things aren't always what they seem. Satan is the father of lies and unfortunately, this is a topic that's been one of his victims

If this was your attempt to comment on my "His Holiness also happens to think unrestrained capitalism is a system of social injustice that promotes secular values and greed. How do American Catholics reconcile this? you lost me. 

[kosta50]

The real question is what’s more important?

Obviously different people have different priorities. What may be important to you may not be important to them. Priorities are not always determined by higher values. Sometimes it's a simple every-day-life decision.

I would suggest their priorities are in order

Again, this is judging according to your yardstick, don't you think? Who do you think theirs' is in order and others' is not?

[kosta50]

I think this is significant because it is the law here that parents may not homeschool their children in lieu of attending public school. They will actually put the parents in jail. The authorities have explicitly stated that they want the children to have a homogenized cultural experience. So I give his Holiness credit for having broken with the contemporary culture of the place of his birth

I am sure His Holiness was talking about instilling Christian values and not homeschooling. And as far as the law is concerned there, I couldn't agree more. It gives people oversight over public education and prevents various religious nuts like Jim Jones and David Koresh and JWs and countless other cults from schooling innocent children in abomination without public oversight.

[kosta50]

[Herr nathanbedford to Kolo:] I gather from your post that you are at least not brought up in America and will not immediately recognize the allusion I make to Robert E. Lee

LOL! Kolo, how do you manage to get such rap? I can't think of too many Americans I know who trace their ancestry to "The Mayflower" and are constantly asked to show their "green card!" :) How many generations does it take?/sar/

[Desdemona]

Sorry, I was at rehearsal trying to make a joyful noise to the Lord and probably failing miserably.

Let's see:

Official church teaching, which was revealed LONG before the 20th century, is that the most just economic system is one that is fair to all being a free market system where man can work according to his talents and abilities for profit

Care to show me who taught that in the Church and when?

The best and cumulative encyclical is Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum. I'd post a direct link, but I don't remember how and my head hurts. You can find it: http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/leo_xiii/encyclicals/documents/hf_l-xiii_enc_15051891_rerum-novarum_en.html. I looked through it and there's bits and pieces amidst the reasoning.

You mean like all the extravagant luxury we find in various churches today, the gold and diamonds and pomp?

What diamonds? I like the pomp (really, it's not as pompish as it looks. I'm in the procession every Sunday in one of the world's great Basilcas and it's NOT rehearsed). It demonstrates respect for God in His house. The gold is two things - a reflection of the book of Revelation (or the Apocalypse) and the gold that's woven through and as a nonporous material it is used for the vessels that contain the Body and Precious Blood of Christ.

Or do you mean the system of selling indulgences so that Rome's cathedrals can be built according to the "every time the sound of a coin hitting the colleciton box rings, a soul from the Purgatory sprigs" economic system?

Sprigs? Okay. Well, this has never been done anywhere I've gone to church. There was a bishop in Bavaria who tried to pull this, but was stopped by the Vatican. Truth be told, modern fundraising and the idea of "major gifts" is an outgrowth of how Catholics paid for churches over the last so many centuries. Bishops and cardinals "cultivate" a donor and said donor gives cash for a feature or toward the building fund. Small donations do add up, but it takes major gifts to build on the scale of a 2,000 seat church. Each diocese has the records if you want to see them, Even the Vatican for St. Peter's in great detail.

Why don't you tell us how the Dodges of Venice ran their Republic?

The doges ran things definitely better than Chrysler runs anything. They took turns like our system was meant to be. They actually did have a system of more or less term limits. Children without parents to claim them were not left on the streets, but were in Oespedali run by the church and supported by private donations where they were taught a trade. Yes, the city is opulently elegant, but the economy was based on trade and in those days, trade was profitable. They also built a lot of churches - and went to Confession far more often than we do. There's a lot more about the generosity to the church, but it's not in line with modern sensibilities. When the plague was over, they even built a new church in celebration. After Italy started to unite and the ideas of socialism set in, it all fell apart.

Oh, yes, it's that "infiltration from the Left theory."

Theory? You weren't in my parish in the 70's. It's not a theory. It's a very inconvenient fact.

And what is by your definition a true Catholic, and to what degree must one be "true" to be true? Is it 40, 50, 75, 90 percent, and who makes that rule?

100% of the bare minimum and quite a bit more. There's a lot of extras you can add on without even getting to legalism. I'm still catching up on the knowing the Faith and history of the church after abysmal catechesis in the 70's when the liberal loonies were in charge. They didn't teach us anything concrete.

Do you obey all the Church demands?

To the best of my ability, yes. We all fail from time to time. That's why we have the Sacrament of Penance, to put us back a right.

And is it not up to God to decide who is a true Catholic and who is a CINO?

Ultimately, but when people who say they are devout, practicing Catholics say they wink at Rome, it's hard to consider them orthodox, especially when they spout the seamless garment drivel that Cardinal Bernardin espoused. Fortunately, that's slowly going away.

[Kolokotronis]

“I can’t think of too many Americans I know who trace their ancestry to “The Mayflower” and are constantly asked to show their “green card!” :) How many generations does it take?/sar/”

Well, not quite the Mayflower. We didn’t arrive until 1623. The Pilgrims wouldn’t let us ashore at Plymouth so we ended up at Cape Ann! I guess we weren’t quite white enough then either! :)

NB’s perfectly innocent comment does go to show just how very different we Orthodoxers view the world, though, doesn’t it!

[kosta50]

Well, not quite the Mayflower. We didn’t arrive until 1623.

Oh, excuse me, 2 years later...that makes all the difference./s

The Pilgrims wouldn’t let us ashore at Plymouth so we ended up at Cape Ann! I guess we weren’t quite white enough then either! :)

LOL!

NB’s perfectly innocent comment does go to show just how very different we Orthodoxers view the world, though, doesn’t it!

That dark, mystical, allien view, isn't it? :)

[kosta50]

The best and cumulative encyclical is Leo XIII's Rerum Novarum

Thanks. I will look it up.

What diamonds? I like the pomp (really, it's not as pompish as it looks...

The Catholic Church is not exactly an example of biblical poverty professed by Christ.

Sprigs? Okay. Well, this has never been done anywhere I've gone to church. There was a bishop in Bavaria who tried to pull this, but was stopped by the Vatican

Big on spelling? Well, I am bad at it, sorry. And sometimes the spellchecker doesn't do much good either.

Selling indulgences was the major beef of Martin Luther. I am surprised someone would try to reinstate them them 500 years later in Bavaria. Or should I be? It's hardly a fund-raising method fit for the Church, don;t you think?

The doges ran things definitely better than Chrysler runs anything. They took turns like our system was meant to be. They actually did have a system of more or less term limits. Children without parents to claim them were not left on the streets, but were in Oespedali run by the church and supported by private donations where they were taught a trade

I thought you'd get a kick out of "Dodges." Nevertheless they were more like royalty than presidents, with some powers shared with nobility.

I think you see Venice through rosy glasses of a single perspective. Venice is responsible for deforesting the entire Dalmatian coast for their ships.

This created loss of topsoil and wastelands, massive poverty and exodus of the Slavic people from there.

Venice was also the state that sent a Crusade against Eastern Christians in the Byzantine Empre.

Greatness cannot be attained in the eyes of God by causing harm to others. Venice was hardly an example of a Christian model state, despite their church building habits. It's all external and superficial and for one's own glory. At what price?

[annalex]

Very good post and the ensuing discussion.

I have come to the conclusion that the system of government -- for example, who gets to vote, who makes the rules, who owns what, -- is of some importance but the role of Christianity is far more important. Let the Church speak to the nation and that nation preserves human dignity and freedom despite all tyranny. Silence the Church -- either by oppression or by separation -- and the nation descends into slavery all by herself.

[pegleg]

Obviously different people have different priorities. What may be important to you may not be important to them.

Agreed.

Who do you think theirs' is in order and others' is not?

In my view priorities determined by higher values are in the proper order. If folks do that then the “stuff” will work itself out. If folks don’t do that, the “stuff” can keep you bogged down.

[Desdemona]

The Catholic Church is not exactly an example of biblical poverty professed by Christ.

It's more of a hand to mouth existence than people know. This morning I was at a three hour rehearsal at afore mentioned great basilica where the temperature in the church in the winter is usually between 55 and 60 degrees because of heating costs. Imagine what that does to string and wind instruments. The organ needs to be tuned very badly and we don't have the cash, so it's just getting worse. Why someone does not go to one of our wealthy, music loving parishioners and ask them to sponsor it, is beyond me. Anyway, we were all layered to the gills and still cold. The church will be full for the concert tomorrow, so it won't be as bad, but it's still uncomfortable. Various plant items are on a waiting list, but probably won't be dealt with unless they die or break. Parishes are the same way everywhere and if it wasn't for the generosity of Americans, the Vatican would have to charge much higher entrance fees to the Vatican museum just to keep out of the red. The Churches "riches" are in assets that were donated for the inspiration of the people. There are some endowment funds out there scattered, but due to ethical constraints, the values took a big hit even before the stock market went crazy.

As for being professed by Christ - remember when Judas admonished Mary Magdalene for bathing Christ in expensive perfume and told her that it could have been sold to feed the poor, Christ admonished Judas. The poor will always be with us. We still serve them and in the great art and architecture give them a place to go where we all are rich.

Selling indulgences was the major beef of Martin Luther. I am surprised someone would try to reinstate them them 500 years later in Bavaria. Or should I be? It's hardly a fund-raising method fit for the Church, don;t you think?

Martin Luther had more on his mind than indulgences. And there was never any reinstatement in Bavaria or statement at all - the bishop in Bavaria who tried to pull that did it in the 15th century when trying to help raise cash for St. Peter's in Rome. He was wrong then and it's wrong now.

I think you see Venice through rosy glasses of a single perspective. Venice is responsible for deforesting the entire Dalmatian coast for their ships.

I see the Venetians for what they were. Don't think I don't. But, are our wealthy any different overseas when something is standing in the way? No. Even Ross Perot blew a hole in a sea wall to be able to get his yacht to the dock. That doesn't change the fact that Venice was a great republic.

Venice was also the state that sent a Crusade against Eastern Christians in the Byzantine Empre.

And they brought home an evangelist, too. Crusade? Call it what it was - a war based on something other than religion. The crusades themselves were really more defensive wars than anything else, but again the perspectives are tempered by centuries of conflicting information.

It's all external and superficial and for one's own glory.

So is lab science, if you ever talk to dedicated lab scientists. The legalism of artificially maintaining poverty "as Christ would want it" is just as self-congratulatory and self righteous - and just as sinful. People who brag about that are NOT demonstrating humility of any sort.

The funny thing about the Catholic Church is that it is the most hated and maligned institution on earth - and the least known and understood. Many people rail against what they think the Church is and stands for because they've been mislead. Yes, there are warts and some things we are not very proud of, but would it be true love if we all abandoned it because of that?

[kosta50]

As for being professed by Christ - remember when Judas admonished Mary Magdalene for bathing Christ in expensive perfume and told her that it could have been sold to feed the poor, Christ admonished Judas. The poor will always be with us. We still serve them and in the great art and architecture give them a place to go where we all are rich

Yeah, but you left out that "He [Judas Iscariot] did not say this because he cared about the poor but because he was a thief; as keeper of the money bag, he used to help himself to what was put into it."

The crusades themselves were really more defensive wars than anything else

Kolo, care to comment on this? I mentioned the Venetian Crusade against Byzantine Empire. Defensive war? Is this what they teach you nowadays, Desdemona? If that is true, why did John Paul II apologize to the Orthodox for the Byzantine Crusade?

The funny thing about the Catholic Church is that it is the most hated and maligned institution on earth - and the least known and understood

If you represent higher standards then you are held to higher standards.  

[Kolokotronis]

“The crusades themselves were really more defensive wars than anything else, but again the perspectives are tempered by centuries of conflicting information.”

D, with all due respect, the sacking of The City by barbarian Roman Catholic crusaders of the so called 4th Crusade was hardly a defensive war. It was an attack on Christian Orthodoxy by the forces of the Pope of Rome. Its purpose was to enrich the crusaders, which it did in spades, and forcefully impose the Latin Rite on and complete subjugation of the Orthodox people and Church there to the Pope. The slaughter of men women and children was massive in scale. Indeed, so horrific was the raping, pillaging and burning that it was compared even by Westerners to what the Vandals and Goths had done cebturies before. In particular they smashed and gutted Agia Sophia and set a prostitute up on the throne of the EP.

To be fair, Pope Innocent III tried to restrain the crusaders but to no avail and after it was all over he observed “

“How, indeed, will the church of the Greeks, no matter how severely she is beset with afflictions and persecutions, return into ecclesiastical union and to a devotion for the Apostolic See, when she has seen in the Latins only an example of perdition and the works of darkness, so that she now, and with reason, detests the Latins more than dogs?”

He was right. As recently as about 12 years ago I heard an impassioned speech given at church about this very subject after a commemoration of the event at an April Divine Liturgy. In great measure our Orthodox resistance to reunion can be found in a sack which took place 804 years ago. Now that may seem silly to people with no historical memory, but to us its fundamental.

[Desdemona]

I'll get back to this later (LOOONNGGGGG day ahead standing on risers), but the 4th "Crusade" was less a crusade than it was one superpower setting out to destroy the other. That's what they all did. Call a spade a spade (it wasn't really a crusade). It wasn't pretty. I know that. But, at the moment, the day will be spent giving back talent to God's people.

Later.

[Kolokotronis]

“...but the 4th “Crusade” was less a crusade than it was one superpower setting out to destroy the other. That’s what they all did. Call a spade a spade (it wasn’t really a crusade).”

That’s not what anyone at the time, save perhaps a few Venetians, thought. There have been thoroughly revisionist histories written since then, almost all by Roman Catholic apologists, which take your “tut tut” position, but even the Popes haven’t bought into that one.

BTW, Constantinople was not its former self by the 13th century. The destruction of Byzantine society by the 4th crusade assured the ultimate triumph of the Mohammedan Turks over the next two centuries. The Latins’ desire for wealth and to impose heresy on the Empire rather than to assist fellow Christians in their fight against rampant Mohammedanism lead to what we see today. And equally troublesome is the support that American foreign and military policy has given to the ongoing destruction of Eastern Christianity to this very day.