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Obama-Daschle “reform” will cripple American health care
dc examiner ^ | 1/11/09 | Sally C. Pipes

Posted on 01/11/2009 1:37:09 PM PST by george76

Since being ousted from the U.S. Senate in 2004, Daschle has written extensively on health care. His recent book, Critical: What We Can Do About the Health-Care Crisis, might as well be a blueprint for the Obama Administration's position on health reform.

Unfortunately, the Obama-Daschle plan's assumptions are false, its details are alarming, and its results will ultimately be disastrous.

Government reimbursement rates already discourage doctors from accepting patients with government coverage. As the government program slowly becomes the only game in town, what then of physicians? Will they simply accept their fate? We can look to our north for a possible answer.

Canadians have "enjoyed" universal health coverage since the 1970s. They also enjoy the rationing of care. Both drugs and physicians are in short supply.

The governments of each province in Canada establish payment rates for physicians, and they're less than half what their American counterparts earn. Is it any surprise that 11 percent of Canadian-trained doctors pack up their stethoscopes and come to the U.S. to practice medicine?

Because there aren't enough doctors, Canadians must wait in line. Wait times for referrals from primary care physicians to specialists in Canada exceed 18 weeks -- twice what doctors consider clinically acceptable.

Daschle wants the government, not your doctor, to decide what the best treatment is for you. And he somehow equates cost-effectiveness with medical effectiveness.

Daschle wants to create a Federal Health Board (FHB) to make these medical decisions for us. He likens the FHB to the Federal Reserve, describing it as "a quasi-governmental organization" consisting of presidentially-appointed, Senate-approved governors.

(Excerpt) Read more at dcexaminer.com ...


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Editorial; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections; US: District of Columbia
KEYWORDS: 111th; agenda; bhohealthcare; daschle; healthcare; obama; obamadaschle
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1 posted on 01/11/2009 1:37:10 PM PST by george76
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To: george76
>>> Wait times for referrals from primary care physicians to specialists in Canada exceed 18 weeks <<<

Last visit to Vancouver Canada I met a lady who was severly gimped up with a bad knee. She had been waiting 6 month for simple orthoscopic surgery (an outpatient procedure) and had just recieved a notice that it would be at least 4 more months before she could be operated on.

As a 72 year old with some health problems, I will fight Socialized Medicine like the plague!! You should too!

2 posted on 01/11/2009 1:42:51 PM PST by HardStarboard ("The urge to save humanity is almost always a false front for the urge to rule - Mencken knew Obama)
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To: george76

I have had a wonderful family doctor for 35 years. Once I said to him that he had a pretty hard job, and he said that the only thing he doesn’t like is the two hours or so of paperwork he has to do every evening after seeing patients all day long. He is over 60, and I am certain, given what he said about the paperwork, that if Obama makes healthcare any more onerous for physicans than it already is, he will retire. That’s what’s going to happen to a WHOLE LOT of physicians in this country. Wait and see.


3 posted on 01/11/2009 1:42:53 PM PST by Irene Adler (')
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To: george76

Without question, health care in America will look violently different in 24 to 36 months. Elections have consequences, and this will be a very painful consequence.

What will be more interesting is the fate of private insurance. Many on the left will be pushing to make private insurance illegal. My guess is the American people won’t bite. But eventually, you’ll end up with a much more “classist” health care system. One in which a sizable percentage of Americans will be stuck with single-payor, government managed and rationed health care. For the wealthier Americans, or people that work in jobs that are highly skilled (and thus highly compensated) probably won’t find much difference in their coverage of tomorrow vs their coverage of today.


4 posted on 01/11/2009 1:45:46 PM PST by Big_Monkey
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To: george76

If we can’t afford Medicare, how will we pay for an expanded government system?


5 posted on 01/11/2009 1:45:48 PM PST by csmusaret (Congress hasn't got anything right since they declared war on Japan.)
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To: george76

It’s time to find out for sure if the AARP is a DNC front organization (as I strongly suspect) or will they show a willingness to really pressure these people to provide real solutions, including privatization.


6 posted on 01/11/2009 1:47:58 PM PST by Steamburg ( Your wallet speaks the only language most politicians understand.)
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To: george76

Simple rule: I want whatever Federal Health Insurance Plan Daschle has for himself and his family. Or any other democrat in power.

You can safely bet that the democrats’ personal health insurance bears absolutely no relationship to the third world coverage Daschle has planned for us peons.

Another safe bet: The media will put massive lipstick on Daschle’s pet pig, when the time comes to fake the news.


7 posted on 01/11/2009 1:48:11 PM PST by FormerACLUmember
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To: george76
Soviet premier Nikita Khrushchev famously used an expression generally translated into English as “We will bury you!” — The Democrats went Yeah!. We will bury the USA in debt, flood the country with stoop labor ignorants and be in charge for life.
8 posted on 01/11/2009 1:50:54 PM PST by Tarpon (America's first principles, freedom, liberty, market economy and self-reliance will never fail.)
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To: csmusaret
If we can’t afford Medicare, how will we pay for an expanded government system?

Just print more money. That's the Bush plan but 0bama is gonna make Bush look like a piker.

9 posted on 01/11/2009 1:51:02 PM PST by Graybeard58
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To: FormerACLUmember
You got that right. Hillary will never be seen standing in line at the Chappaqua free clinic. One system for the nobles and another for the serfs.

When the time comes, we need to burn up the Congressional servers, phone and fax lines just as we did during the shamnesty scam two years ago.

10 posted on 01/11/2009 1:57:35 PM PST by Jacquerie (Want to die wallowing in your own filth? Support Obamacare.)
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To: Steamburg

I can’t believe you still have a question about that. The AARP is just another auxilliary to the DNC.


11 posted on 01/11/2009 2:07:16 PM PST by anniegetyourgun
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To: csmusaret

“If we can’t afford Medicare, how will we pay for an expanded government system?”

Yep. That’s the question that no one seems to be asking OR answering.

Pie in the sky.


12 posted on 01/11/2009 2:08:41 PM PST by EEDUDE
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To: FormerACLUmember
***Simple rule: I want whatever Federal Health Insurance Plan Daschle has for himself and his family. Or any other democrat in power***

Sound great.

Just like “requiring” them to use govt. schools for their kids.

The only thing that is consistent about demoncrats is their hypocrisy.

13 posted on 01/11/2009 2:10:45 PM PST by Mrs.Z ("...you're a Democrat. You're expected to complain and offer no solutions." Denny Crane)
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To: george76
Don't believe Obama and don't believe Daschle. They both want you to pay for others' abortions.

Sen. Tom Daschle (D-SD) Catholic politician who votes for abortion in contradiction to Church teachings. One of American Life League's "Deadly Dozen."

14 posted on 01/11/2009 2:10:51 PM PST by Salvation ( †With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Jacquerie

“When the time comes, we need to burn up the Congressional servers, phone and fax lines just as we did during the shamnesty scam two years ago. “

Can’t we just line them all up against the wall and shoot them? Please?


15 posted on 01/11/2009 2:11:25 PM PST by EEDUDE
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To: george76

Another socialist domino in the march to 0bama’a Utopia.

Put it up there with the domestic security service, trillion dollar deficits, sham foreign policy of appeasement and accommodation, marginalization of the Bill of Rights, and sworn allegiance to the supremacy of the UN.

It ain’t your Mother’s country anymore, Duckie...

Time to refresh the tree of Liberty, IMO.


16 posted on 01/11/2009 2:12:07 PM PST by PubliusMM (RKBA; a matter of fact, not opinion)
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To: EEDUDE

The Senate has already held his confirmation hearings. Did any GOP (gutless other party) Senators ask that question?


17 posted on 01/11/2009 2:13:34 PM PST by csmusaret (Congress hasn't got anything right since they declared war on Japan.)
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To: EEDUDE
Can’t we just line them all up against the wall and shoot them? Please?

If only . . .

18 posted on 01/11/2009 2:14:35 PM PST by Jacquerie (Want to die wallowing in your own filth? Support Obamacare.)
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To: Big_Monkey

What do you expect? By destroying manufacturing and shipping good jobs overseas that had benefits, millions lost their health insurance. As has been noted on this forum, Private insurance cost a fortune and as soon as you are ill the insurer jacks up your rates or drops you altogether. Millions of Americans will support national health care...including the unemployed, the underemployed, retirees from Delta and retirees from the big three -who either have lost retiree health care benefits or about to lose such benefits.

You talk about how long it takes to get a procedure in Europe...well my uncle could not get a heart operation at all in Ireland as he was above 60 so I know this is true and worse than you know. What is equally true is if he lived in the US and had no insurance, he would not get such an operation either...unless he was dirt poor and eligible for Medicaid...the uninsured millions are not eligible for Medicaid. If people can’t get what they need no matter what they do to better themselves-feel hopeless...they will turn to the government.

Those of you who bought foreign cars and a variety of foreign goods contributed to this problem...there is no free lunch. One of life’s great ironies is that free trade-a mostly conservative principle (yes, I know Clinton signed NAFTA, but it is more associated with Repubs. than Dems.) destroyed the jobs which stood between us and socialism...conservatives planted the seed of their own destruction.


19 posted on 01/11/2009 2:14:52 PM PST by bronxboy
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To: george76
The difference between a Democracy and a Republic something we seem to have forgotten. Spread this video around.
20 posted on 01/11/2009 2:17:43 PM PST by HighlyOpinionated (YOU can get your own Bail Out . . .Dec 18 post at http://auntiecoosa.blogspot.com)
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To: Big_Monkey

“a much more “classist” health care system”

Yes. We want the Congress-care system for ours. Better yet, we want 1st Family coverage. At their prices.


21 posted on 01/11/2009 2:19:06 PM PST by combat_boots ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."Aldous Huxley)
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To: EEDUDE

Fiona! I wondered where you were! (Burn Notice)


22 posted on 01/11/2009 2:20:52 PM PST by combat_boots ("In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act."Aldous Huxley)
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To: george76

I’m curious, where in the Constitution does it say the Fed govt has the power to do this?


23 posted on 01/11/2009 2:40:24 PM PST by driftdiver (I could eat it raw, but why do that when I have a fire.)
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To: george76
My doctor is a Canadian refugee.
24 posted on 01/11/2009 2:41:55 PM PST by razorback-bert (Save the planet...it is the only known one with beer!)
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To: driftdiver
where in the Constitution does it say the Fed govt has the power to do this?

What is a Constitution?
25 posted on 01/11/2009 2:52:12 PM PST by randomhero97 ("First you want to kill me, now you want to kiss me. Blow!" - Ash)
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To: george76

Physicians will simply hang up there stethoscopes and take retirement, living off their investments and refusing to answer questions concerning health in any way. Medical students will drop out of the additianal training need to be qualified by medical boards, going to work as funds management specialists to pay off their accrued tuition bills they have incurred up to that point. The net effect is to drive the vast majority of medical practitioners out of the profession in far less than a generation.

It has already become almost criminal to practice medicine here in this country, and without adequate rewards, depending on someone to answer “the call” to become a doctor is a rather slender hope to maintain the ranks of doctors and other medical practitioners.

If you have not become sufficiently conversant with matters of your own health maintenence by the age of forty, you are either dead, or soon will be.


26 posted on 01/11/2009 2:55:39 PM PST by alloysteel (We have been taken prisoner by the American Cong. Endure. Freedom will come.)
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To: Irene Adler
...if Obama makes healthcare any more onerous
for physicians than it already is, he will retire.
That’s what’s going to happen to a WHOLE LOT of physicians
in this country. Wait and see.

Yes, this is likely to be true
Many ongoing conversations to this effect in
Doctor's lounges across the country

27 posted on 01/11/2009 3:01:43 PM PST by HangnJudge
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To: bronxboy
"By destroying manufacturing and shipping good jobs overseas that had benefits, millions lost their health insurance.

Bronxboy, I get the feeling you and I agree on some things and disagree on others. I believe you are correct that the energy behind health care reform is the loss of American manufacturing jobs. I sense we disagree on why those jobs were lost in the first place and we may disagree why health care is so expensive today, and will be more expensive tomorrow.

America hasn't lost jobs because of NAFTA or other trade agreements. America has lost jobs because of over burdensome government regulations, high energy costs, powerful unions and their lobby in congress and automation. But, really that is a argument for another day and thread.

Health care, on the other hand, has an entirely different set of reasons in addition to some of the ones listed above. Tort reform is desperately needed to protect hospitals and doctors from blood sucking ambulance chasers. Greater incentive, not less needs to be given to people who purchase benefits themselves and to companies who provide it for their employees. And lastly, Obama is right in tackling the industries unwillingness to computerize and streamline it's records and billing abilities. I'm not sure I'll like what Barry comes up with, but anything will be better that what's happening today, which is nothing.

28 posted on 01/11/2009 3:02:49 PM PST by Big_Monkey
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To: Big_Monkey
I'm not sure I'll like what Barry comes up with, but anything will be better that what's happening today, which is nothing.

I disagree with that statement........."Anything" may not be better....in fact may be way worse than anyone imagined.

29 posted on 01/11/2009 3:08:04 PM PST by Osage Orange (Obama's heart is blacker than the devil's riding boots...............)
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To: alloysteel
"Physicians will simply hang up there stethoscopes and take retirement"

This is criminally under-reported here in the states. One needs look any further than Germany to see the effects of state-managed health care on Doctor availability. Germany is facing doctor shortages in many parts of the country and is facing even greater shortages of critical care physicians in the big cities.

I have yet to see any broadcast network air news coverage of the significant problems that come with state managed health care.

30 posted on 01/11/2009 3:10:03 PM PST by Big_Monkey
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To: driftdiver
"I’m curious, where in the Constitution does it say the Fed govt has the power to do this?"

What gives you the impression that Barry or the Congressional Dems care about the Constitution?

31 posted on 01/11/2009 3:11:59 PM PST by Big_Monkey
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To: george76

Their progams will cripple everything.


32 posted on 01/11/2009 3:16:33 PM PST by mulligan (A)
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To: Big_Monkey
I'm not sure I'll like what Barry comes up with, but anything will be better that what's happening today, which is nothing.

You mean something like the Canada or England heaalth sysytem? Where will they go for health care if we asopt their systems?

33 posted on 01/11/2009 3:18:07 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousnad years.)
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To: george76

I’ve already experienced what we can expect from Obama/Daschle care. My insurance company has refused to pay for a legend high blood medication I had used for years with excellent control of my blood pressure. I was told that I should try a a generic medication of the same drug class, but not the same medication. My doctor and I have been jockeying dosages and added diuretics for nearly two years without getting the same blood pressure control I had before. I am also experiencing some nasty side effects, yet my insurance company insists that this generic drug is an effective treatment. Welcome to Obama/Daschle care.


34 posted on 01/11/2009 3:18:49 PM PST by The Great RJ ("Mir we bleiwen wat mir sin" or "We want to remain what we are." ..Luxembourg motto)
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To: Balding_Eagle; Osage Orange
I think that sentence in my post was confusing. Yes, I know whatever Health care changes Barry comes up with are going to be ugly.

My point was that the health care system (private and government) has been criminal with respect to their information technology systems. It's a huge cause of unnecessary pain and expense for everyone involved - patients, doctors, hospitals and insurance companies. It needs to be addressed.

35 posted on 01/11/2009 3:24:03 PM PST by Big_Monkey
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To: Big_Monkey

You are correct in some ways... I work in manufacturing and I have seen the trade abuses that other countries heap on American companies...trade is completely unfair at this point, fair trade would be a good thing-not what we have now. The problem with the trade agreements is they allow one sided trade-some are poorly negotiated and some are not enforced fairly.

I would love to see less regulation...I work in Auto’s so believe me cafe standards are killing us as well as other regulations, but this is not the problem...it really is trade. The Japanese were allowed to undercut our market by selling cars cheap-below cost in many cases here and making it up at home as they have trade barriers that keep American cars out of Japan. This the usual practice for the Japanese-think about electronics. It’s bad for the country to lose American jobs. Also, our tax codes encourage outsourcing...it’s a mess no doubt.

Insurance is a different story...I do not see how free market can work for health insurance. Insurance companies will never want to ensure older people or sick people. As it stands now, I must fight for every insurance claim...because it will be denied. Insurance companies know that some people won’t fight, and they don’t have to pay...I have seen Tort reform first hand in Georgia...a doctor left a towel in me for almost a year, nearly killed me...there is no mechanism in place as we speak to remove bad doctors. This doctor still practices medicine in Georgia and has injured two people that I know of; he came from Seattle where he killed four people and injured who knows how many. Like most issues, Insurance is complicated...Also, insurance companies have way to much power over doctors just ask anyone who suffers from long term Lyme disease...my wife is from Connecticut. Her niece has Lyme, My sis in law has been threatened by insurance companies...it’s a miracle the kid is still alive.

The bottom line is job losses will lead to socialism. I believe outsourcing, H1B visas, unfair trade and of course the financial meltdown has caused job losses that make socialism not only possible but likely.


36 posted on 01/11/2009 3:32:51 PM PST by bronxboy
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To: Big_Monkey
Fair enough........

But I won't be betting the farm on anything "good" or "better" coming out of it........

37 posted on 01/11/2009 3:33:01 PM PST by Osage Orange (Obama's heart is blacker than the devil's riding boots...............)
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To: Big_Monkey

Criminal how?


38 posted on 01/11/2009 3:44:30 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousnad years.)
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To: bronxboy
Mhhmm. I believe our difference are perhaps greater than I originally thought. But, let's keep this respectful.

Trade is just too long a conversation to get into in a Health Care thread, so I'll leave that alone.

"I do not see how free market can work for health insurance."

Well, we really don't know because we haven't had "free market" health care since the 1920's. I wouldn't argue that the government doesn't have some room to intervene with respect to the kind of people that are covered and setting the conditions in which they could be dropped.

Additionally, there is something wrong when Doctors have multiple negligence findings and are allowed to keep their licenses. My sense is this is a result from Doctors judging Doctors. Again, there may be some room for limited government intervention here. I would guess, however that there are satisfactory regulations already in place, but they're just not being enforced.

My point is that there is indeed room for either additional regulation or better regulation in our health care system. However, that's not the direction we are headed. We are headed towards a UK/Canadian style, government mandated, single payor system. That is going to be the death of high quality health care that most Americans have become accustomed.

39 posted on 01/11/2009 3:49:30 PM PST by Big_Monkey
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To: Jacquerie
When the time comes, we need to burn up the Congressional servers, phone and fax lines just as we did during the shamnesty scam two years ago.

Three words: Harry. And. Louise.

Convince the American public that their health care is going to be "managed" by the same folks who run the Post Office, and this will go down in flames just like HillaryCare did back in the early 1990s.
40 posted on 01/11/2009 3:52:47 PM PST by tanknetter
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To: Balding_Eagle
"Criminal how?"

Criminal in a figurative and literal sense. The complexities and confusion of Medicaire paperwork leads hundreds of millions of dollars (maybe billions depending on what study you read) of waste and fraud.

Patient record keeping and the inability or difficulty of doctors and hospitals sharing those records amongst themselves quickly and confidentially leads to disastrous patient care outcomes everyday. Things like drug interactions, overdosing and allergies cause thousands of deaths (maybe many more) every year. The Quaid baby case last year is a great example.

I think that this is an area where government and only government (or a government empowered private agency) could have significant and beneficial impact.

41 posted on 01/11/2009 3:56:19 PM PST by Big_Monkey
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To: Big_Monkey

I don’t want nationalized health care...don’t misunderstand. I don’t want to get into free trade...too long as you noted, but I am damned mad that good jobs were lost-it could have been avoided...I’ve been sounding the warning for quite a while now that such a loss would lead to socialism, and it has. We will never go back to pay as you go insurance because health cost is way to expensive for most Americans to cover. So what now?

I am always respectful and enjoy a good debate...as for doctors, there is no government regulation of doctors in any state This is left up to other doctors and rarely are bad doctors licenses suspended...if they were, they merely set up shop in a different state...no idea how to fix this.


42 posted on 01/11/2009 4:06:00 PM PST by bronxboy
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To: tanknetter

Harry and Louise worked because fewer people were without health insurance...even people on Free Republic (not me) have posted that they think some form of national health insurance in needed. It won’t work this time.


43 posted on 01/11/2009 4:08:29 PM PST by bronxboy
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To: Big_Monkey

As Ronald Reagan said, “Government is the problem, not the solution”

I can’t believe how narrow minded and uninformed so many Freepers are. All you have to do is look north to Canada to see how successful government is in the health care business.

But no one bothers to do so. The life span in America is at it’s peak, as is the quality of it’s health care. It’s obvious to anyone who is watching that you and your ilk will have their way.

What a shame, 100 years average age was within reach.


44 posted on 01/11/2009 5:17:47 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousnad years.)
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To: Balding_Eagle
"It’s obvious to anyone who is watching that you and your ilk will have their way."

After reading your post I have to ask myself if you read mine. What ilk exactly are you referring to?

If you, even for a moment, don't think that America's health care delivery system is broken, I'm not sure how in touch with reality you are. Even the most conservative Congressional representatives acknowledge that there's serious problems with our health care system.

When Reagan was President, the uninsured only made up less than 8% of the population. Now, some estimates have the number as high as 38%. If it ever gets to 50%, which may be likely depending on how prolonged this recession becomes, radical change will be a certainty

If this oblivious sect of the conservative movement (apparently like you) doesn't stop denying the obvious an engaging the problem, we will surely end up with a Canadian solution to an American problem.

45 posted on 01/11/2009 5:32:48 PM PST by Big_Monkey
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To: Big_Monkey

The American health care system IS broken. The government broke it. On purpose.

I’ll just give one example: Here in CO the Dem legislature managed, over a course of many years, to force the insurance companies to only offer health insurance plans that no one would buy IF they had the choice to buy the plans they used to buy 20 years ago.

Instead we have plans that cost at least twice as much as the plans that the consumers want.


46 posted on 01/11/2009 5:43:02 PM PST by Balding_Eagle (If America falls, darkness will cover the face of the earth for a thousnad years.)
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To: Big_Monkey
Now, some estimates have the number as high as 38%.

"Some estimates" is a slightly less meaningful term than the estimate to which it refers. Democratic pie-in-the-sky estimates for those who are uninsured are 40 million (note that 13% is ever so slightly less than 38%). This 13% estimate also includes a large number of people who can afford insurance (gross yearly incomes over $50k), illegal immigrants (who we shouldn't be covering in the first place, let alone counting), and the cyclically unemployed (those who happen to be uninsured at any point in time due to them being temporarily unemployed).

Yes, there are serious problems with our healthcare system. Many of which arise from incredibly poor health habits of people who do not have to pay for their own care in any meaningful way which results in an artificially inflated demand for healthcare services which, in turn, drives up the price. But many of the problems with our healthcare system will be exacerbated by becoming "single-payor." And our spot as the #1 most reponsive healthcare system in the world will definitely become a thing of the past.

47 posted on 01/11/2009 7:38:05 PM PST by the808bass
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To: Big_Monkey
Now, some estimates have the number as high as 38%.

"Some estimates" is a slightly less meaningful term than the estimate to which it refers. Democratic pie-in-the-sky estimates for those who are uninsured are 40 million (note that 13% is ever so slightly less than 38%). This 13% estimate also includes a large number of people who can afford insurance (gross yearly incomes over $50k), illegal immigrants (who we shouldn't be covering in the first place, let alone counting), and the cyclically unemployed (those who happen to be uninsured at any point in time due to them being temporarily unemployed).

Yes, there are serious problems with our healthcare system. Many of which arise from incredibly poor health habits of people who do not have to pay for their own care in any meaningful way which results in an artificially inflated demand for healthcare services which, in turn, drives up the price. But many of the problems with our healthcare system will be exacerbated by becoming "single-payor." And our spot as the #1 most reponsive healthcare system in the world will definitely become a thing of the past.

48 posted on 01/11/2009 7:38:47 PM PST by the808bass
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To: the808bass
"Now, some estimates have the number as high as 38%. "

This was a typo. I meant to type 38 million. As for the rest of it, I don't disagree with anything you proffered.

My larger point to an earlier poster is some Republicans can't continue to pretend that there isn't a problem. When the GOP had both houses and the Pres, this was an opportunity to draft legislation that offered market-based solutions. They didn't, at least not seriously. So, now we're left with practically no legislative power and no veto. Elections have consequences and those consequences aren't going to be pleasant.

49 posted on 01/11/2009 7:58:20 PM PST by Big_Monkey
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To: EEDUDE

I was thinking pitchforks and torches.....and tossing their cars in the Potomac


50 posted on 01/11/2009 10:20:53 PM PST by goodnesswins (Tell the truth - GOEBBELIZATION (propaganda) is what many voters suffer from.....)
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