Posted on 01/24/2009 4:19:53 PM PST by LibWhacker
The mother of the notorious Waco sect leader David Koresh has been found stabbed to death at the house of a sister in Texas, police say.
Bonnie Clark Halderman, who was in her sixties, was found dead at the home of Beverly Clark who has been taken into custody pending a court appearance.
Police say they have no idea of a possible motive for her death.
(Excerpt) Read more at news.bbc.co.uk ...
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Should be the NYT or Waco Journal or BATF newletter or Janet Reno's blog reporting.
Passing judgment in a supposedly objective report.
No bias there I see. (rolls eyes)
CLINTONS FAULT !!!!
Waco paper doesn’t cover actual news. Nice guys, and I occasionally have work in the paper, but they primarily go to pre-publicized events and write stories from press releases.
Janet Reno back?
Regardless of Janet Reno’s infamous response, any “conservative” who doesn’t agree that Koresh was a complete wack-job, and yes infamous (remember the part about how he shot what, 5 ATF agents clearly identified, that started the whole standoff?) has some serious issues.
Am I defending Reno-and-Co’s treatment of the Koresh standoff? No, not at all. But not to acknowledge Koresh as a seriously dangerous nut-job, and his religion as a twisted sub-Christian cult....is to be perilously like him yourself.
Koresh is a “conservative hero” only as much as say John Brown was in 1859...which is to say, not at all.
You tube links about Koresh:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRcAd4plJZ8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xc9oB_v1giI
no.....I believe that one was JANET RENO’S FAULT.....but....clinton did put that idiot in power.
There is a case to be made that John Brown’s actions at Harper’s Ferry were morally and intellectually defensible, being based directly on the principles in the Declaration of Independence.
Of course, they were in practice a horrible idea and led directly to secession and our Civil War.
Koresh was just a perverted nutjob out for himself. That’s something JB was never accused of. Say what you like about old John, he certainly wasn’t operating out of self-interest.
Actually no. The only ATF agents shot were assaulting the rear of the building at the same time as Koresh was being shot by the ATF at the front door.
Yes Koresh was a nutjob but since when do we kill kids and women because there is a nutjob in the building - since Waco. BTW are you following the case in the SF Bay area where a transit cop shot a restrained man who was on the ground and already tasered and killed him? More of that to come also.
You're a notoriously ignorant whack job.
You’re right about Koresh being a nut.
Hatred of the incompetence of Janet Reno has made some to suspend judgement of Koresh’s insanity—even in the face of eyewitness testimony that Koresh & followers SET THE FIRE that killed them themselves.
Yeah, that makes for a great argument, doesn't it?
Janet Reno was a totally incompetent horror--who bears responsibility for the catastrophe. That still doesn't make Koresh anything but a total nut-job, who still bears the primary responsibility--since he killed 5 clearly identified federal officers...and held off the government...taking hostages... by force of arms (in the name of him being the MESSIAH...) for many weeks.
If you want to call him a "conservative hero" go for it, but that just makes you resemble Koresh yourself.
Last I checked, conservatism doesn't imply anarchy.
OK, now its clear you don't know what you're talking about. You must be confusing Waco and Jonestown.
The surviving BDs were acquitted by a jury and were deemed to have acted in self defense against the attacking ATF agents.
Secondly, Koresh never took any hostages. He said that any member could leave at any time, and dozens did. The government even provided the remaining BDs with a camcorder so they would go on record to explain why they were staying with Koresh, rather than come out with the others.
I think this article would be one way to begin fixing your vast ignorance on the subject:
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/1999/09/09/waco/
It has nothing to do with Koresh being a "conservative hero", which he was not. The point of Waco is that the government slaughtered a bunch of people because they were suspected to have "illegal weapons" and reports of child abuse.
On Saturday night, May 24, 1856, John Brown and his band visited house after house upon Pottawatomie Creek, and, calling man after man from his bed, murdered five in cold blood. They first visited the house of Doyle, and compelled a father and two sons to go with them. The next morning, the father and one son were found dead in the road about two hundred yards from the house. The father was "shot in the forehead and stabbed in the breast. The son's head was cut open, and there was a hole in his jaw as though made by a knife." The other son was found dead about a hundred and fifty yards away in the grass, "his fingers cut off and his arms cut off, his head cut open, and a hole in his breast."
Then they went to Wilkinson's, reaching there after midnight. They forced open the door and ordered him to go with them. His wife was sick and helpless, and begged them not to take him away. Her prayer was of no avail. The next day Wilkinson was found dead, "a gash in his head and side "
Their next victim was William Sherman. When found in the morning, his "skull was split open in two places, and some brains were washed out. A large hole was cut in his breast, and his left hand was cut off, a little piece of skin on one side." The execution was done with short cutlasses brought from Ohio by Brown.
-excerpt from "End of an Era"
I have had discussions with pro-CSA types who believe the Lawrence Massacre during the war was fully justified because it was done in retaliation for Kansas attacks on Missourians. If you accept this premise, then JB's murders on Pottawatomie Creek were equally justified.
(Personally I believe neither attack was justified.)
Here's the thing. A great moral crime was being committed against the slaves. If anybody ever had a moral right to use violence in their cause, the slaves did. Certainly they would have been far more morally justified in doing so than were American colonists in the 1770s, when they resorted to violence in resistance to what was mostly at the point possible future oppression.
If the slaves had a moral right to use violence against their oppressors, then others had a moral right to join them in their resistance, as the French assisted us in our Revolution.
John Brown was a very poor tactician, but few people at the time claimed he was crazy. Even the governor of VA, who visited him in jail, thought him a fine soft-spoken gentleman.
If you were being held in slavery in Algeria in 1800, would you have had a moral right to resist your owners with violence? If you believe you had such a right, why wouldn't American blacks held in slavery have the same right? I'm just interested in your reason why person A is entitled to defend his freedom with violence, but person B is not.
Really can one justify murdering innocent people? Does taking the higher moral ground justify cold-blooded murder?
Agree 100%
Is warfare ever justified?
Were slaveowners really innocent people, or were they engaged in a lifelong practice of kidnapping, forced labor and other inevitable atrocities?
You didn’t answer my question. If you were being held as a slave, would you be justified in resisting the oppression, even killing your owners? If not, on what basis do you justify American revolution against the British, or for that matter any war? Would Jews in 1940s Europe have been justified in killing SS men?
If you yourself would be justified in fighting back against your enslavers, on what basis do you deny that right to others?
“s Koresh was a nutjob but since when do we kill kids and women because there is a nutjob in the building -”
Why didn’t they just walk out of the building and surrender to police?
So read the account I posted of the victims - how do you justify their murder? They did not enslave Brown.
Pretty old post to be pulling up. You bored today or looking for a fight?
I didn’t pull it up. Those people would be alive if they had walked out.
Except that's not what happened. The ATF fired first and admitted so at Trial.
Koresh was perfectly within his legal rights to kill those agents and in fact not a single Davidian was ever convicted of anything having to do with their deaths.
L
Dang I didn’t even know she was murdered, and thought it just happened. WOW
No, I don't remember that, and neither do you. Because it didn't happen that way.
No actually Janet Reno could have easily picked up Koresh days before while he was in town. There was no need for Waco to ever happen.
Perfect example of how the drunk Janet Reno couldn’t even shoot her way out of paper bag. A lot of innocent lives were lost completely due to the incompetence of the US government. They could have waited this out.
The adults should have chosen to walk out. It’s not like they could have lasted forever. The chances of a massacre in the open was extremely slim considering the press coverage.
Koresh wanted them to die and die they did.
The point is they should have walked out or he should have walked them out. The women and kids would still be alive today. Instead, it’s like they were waiting to die because there wasn’t going to be any good outcomes if they stayed there. He was Jim Jones Jr.
They aren’t coming for me. They never have.
Times they be a changing.
Be safe.
What a bunch of crap.
The FBI's negotiator is on tape telling Koresh's attorney that they should "buy some fire insurance" days before they torched the BDs compound.
They played Nancy Sinatra's "Boots are Walking" song at full blast during all hours of the night, which has the key line,
"You keep thinking that you'll never get burned. Well, I just got me a brand new box of matches, and what I got you ain't got time to learn. These boots are made for walkin', and that's just what they'll do. One of these days these boots will walk all over you."
They knew the BDs were using kerosene lamps to light the place, because they shut the electricity off for weeks, then they used incendiary rounds on the compound.
There's no mystery as to who set the fire, or who the real murderers are.
How would Koresh have gotten the death penalty? He was shot by agents at the front of the compound while the agents who were killed were attacking the back of the compound. All surviving BDs who were charged with murder were acquitted.
Janet Reno was not in charge at the beginning of the incident.
But she was the reason it went up in flames and everyone died. She had to make progress in order to bolster her career and Clinton couldn’t be bothered with Waco anymore...he had interns to attend to.
The reports are clear on this fiasco and Clinton and Reno are deep in the blame of it all.
Reno was in charge from the beginning until the pitiful end.
Big problem in the US; we no longer hold people accountable for the offices they administer, companies they run or the public they are said to serve. Even if Reno did not sign the original arrest warrant (I believe she was briefed from the beginning) it was her responsibility.
Its clear why some stayed in the building, as those that did voluntarily leave the compound were immediately arrested and frog-marched in chains to the county jail in front of live television cameras for everyone to see before all being charged with the murder of federal agents.
They were pleading to speak with the media and hanging signs out of the window saying, "WE WANT THE PRESS".
They knew the government was railroading them and wanted to make their case clear to the world before negotiating a surrender. Considering they were the victims of psychological warfare, including blasting music day and night, shining spotlights in the windows, and firing on the compound, I can forgive the BDs for possibly having not acted with the most germane judgement.
However, the government's actions were not in any sense justifiable. Yet the urban myth that they were some sort of Heaven's Gate or Jim Jones cult persists, at least to some ignoramuses around here.
That’s a bunch of conspiracy crap. Those people could have walked out at any time. They chose to stay in a fire trap. It was just a matter of time.
Everything I state is factual. Feel free to point out one thing I said that was inaccurate.
It was just a matter of time.
You mean they should have know the FBI/ATF were going to incinerate them? Maybe you're right. They certainly gave plenty of hints.
They were going to be incinerated anyway according to you. They should have surrendered.
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