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To: NVDave
What is here and now is that dividends are being slashed, stocks are going to zero, we’re now having to contend with talk of bank nationalization, etc. We’re now in an environment where such previously safe companies as Dow Chemical, with a dividend history of steady, growing dividends back to 1912, are faced with having to cut their dividend. Even utility stocks are not completely safe dividend plays any more, as Goldman Sachs is now warning investors to hedge utility stocks out to 2010. There are plenty of people who are selling out of stocks because they can see the handwriting on the wall. There are no cap gains to be had, and unless you’re a short-term trader like me, there aren’t about to be gains to be had. Neither the GOP nor the DNC is about to give traders tax cuts. They want to keep people as victims of the “buy-and-hold” scheme of picking the investors’ pockets.

Yes, all of this is because as you say 'the handwriting is on the wall'. However, this bill would change what the handwriting says.

Go look at how long it took the stock market to recover from 1933 onward, or in the 1970’s - and now project that onto the current environment. There’s going to be no stimulative benefit from playing with tax rates on cap gains for years and years to come.

You're comparing apples with oranges. Both times, they tried the Keynesian nonsense that they're planning on doing this time. At neither time, were the ideas in this bill implemented. It would seem that a different response is in order.

Remember, the object here is to create liquidity in the economy and increase GDP as a result of this “stimulus”

Okies, but none of the policies on the table is going to do that. Any increase in GDP is a Pyrrhic victory, since the money that created the supposed increase had to be first taken out of the private sector, borrowed, or printed, to accomplish that. Any upticks will be quickly slapped down by massive inflation anyway.

Creating liquidity and supposedly increasing GDP with government spending is a fool's errand. The government needs to make a strong statement that it's going to get out of the way of businesses trying to dig their way out of this hole. Will it be easy? No, it won't. But the Keynesian way is only going to prolong the suffering and dig the hole deeper.

The BEA GDP release for Q2 2008 shows what happened to the last “stimulus” from Bush: People put it into savings, by and large. There was little to no “stimulus” from handing people that one-off rebate.

That's exactly right. Giving someone $600 ain't the same as giving them a raise (or a cut in taxes, which amounts to the same thing) that is recurring. One-off rebates don't work and never will.

Hence, this is why job creation and wage growth must be targeted.

Job creation and wage growth? From the government? Are you sure you're on the right website? Let's stimulate both by letting businesses keep more of their money and taxing consumers less, so they have more disposable income to spend. This Keynesian crap is ridiculous. If this crap worked, NY State wouldn't be on the verge of bankruptcy right now.

Yes, the US consumer is shutting their wallets. Let's put some damn money back in it and do it permanently, not on a one off basis. That's what this bill is saying!

The US auto industry is doomed

Yes, it is. That's true regardless of how we deal with this financial crisis. Frankly, IMHO, the whole nation is completely doomed. We've allowed ourselves to force manufacturing offshore by raising the cost of doing business here to ridiculous levels, all to pay for the insane government solutions that you're here advocating for. By not smacking this bullcrap down long ago, we doomed ourselves.

This bill isn't a cure-all, but it's an indication that we're looking to move in the right direction. The wrong direction is for the GOP to jump on the Keynes bandwagon.

If you want liquidity, pass this bill, with your amendment on the offshore tax amnesty, and repeal SOX and we've got, not only liquidity, but a favorable business environment going forward.

45 posted on 02/05/2009 6:53:48 AM PST by perfect_rovian_storm
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To: perfect_rovian_storm

The way to put money back in the consumers’ wallets on an ongoing basis is to target job creation: that is small business. Period, end of discussion. Small businesses don’t out-source. They don’t ship entire plants overseas. They create the majority of jobs here in the US.

So screw the multinationals and their agendas. Furthermore, say “no” to the agenda of multinationals and their demands for more H1B visas. Clamp down on immigration rapidly - both legal and illegal. Without the additional 800K+ jobs we have to create just to employ the wave of immigration, we have a chance to see workers in the US gain some bargaining power for wage increases.

The core of the GOP’s agenda should be as follows: Target job creation (ie, small business) with tax cuts and incentives. Target wage growth by removing excess labor (ie, H1B’s and rampant immigration) from the labor pool.

That’s the only way we’re going to see a sustained increasing in consumer spending power in the US.


55 posted on 02/05/2009 7:14:11 AM PST by NVDave
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