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Balkan Basket Case
Washington Times ^ | February 8, 2009 | Jefferey T. Kuhner

Posted on 02/08/2009 12:26:55 PM PST by Ravnagora

From Iceland to Latvia, the growing financial crisis is triggering popular revolts. Several European governments are on the verge of being toppled. Yet, it is in the Balkans where the rising tide of discontent may have the most significant impact.

The bloody breakup of Yugoslavia left in its wake successor states - all of whom, with the exception of Slovenia, are mired in economic stagnation. The region's biggest disappointment, however, has been Croatia. It is now badly lagging behind its northern Slovene neighbor due to massive political corruption. Croatian Prime Minister Ivo Sanader vows to lead his country into the European Union by 2011. Instead, he has transformed Croatia into a mafia state. The government's incompetence threatens to push the country toward economic collapse. It's no wonder thousands of protesters took to the streets in December demanding early elections.

Since coming to power in 2003, Mr. Sanader and his ruling Croatian Democratic Union (HDZ) have presided over a creeping authoritarian kleptocracy. Bribery, kickbacks and cronyism are ubiquitous. Most senior politicians possess unexplained wealth. Mr. Sanader has amassed a personal fortune, including a Zagreb mansion worth about 10 million euros and a luxurious watch collection valued at 150,000 euros. This kind of wretched excess would cause even former disgraced Illinois Gov. Rod Blagojevich to blush.

(Excerpt) Read more at washingtontimes.com ...


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: balkans; croatia; dhimmwit; slavophobe; yugoslavia
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1 posted on 02/08/2009 12:26:55 PM PST by Ravnagora
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To: Ravnagora

The following is a response sent in to the Washington Times regarding the Kuhner commentary. The author is Dragan Rakic from France. He quotes Kuhner, then responds.

Regarding Jeffery Kuhner’s statements that “Hundreds of thousands of Croatians were systematically butchered by Tito’s Partisans; priests, nuns and peasants were massacred; their lands were confiscated; and slave labor camps were established. My grandfather’s brother - a priest - was murdered in his own church, hung with piano wire through the back of his head. My grandfather and his wife and family were rounded up into a concentration camp for three agonizing years - he and my grandmother survived, most of my other ancestors didn’t. Upon leaving the death camp, my grandfather’s small farm was seized, his family persecuted and eventually driven into exile. Despite all their suffering, my grandparents managed to rebuild a life for themselves and their children”.

If Mr. Jeffrey Kuhner did not forget his glorious grandfather, he did forget, or never learned the history of Balkans, particularly the period from 1940 to 1945. In his above sentence he refers to the event when Croat Nazis tried with the help of Vatican’s priest Draganovic,( see the documentary: The Rat Lines), to cross the border and reach Italy and Austria.

Why should the Nazi try to escape the justice? Because they were Croats or because they committed crimes, maybe worse than German Nazis did in Yugoslavia. Those “good” Croat Nazis murdered a cousin of mine just because her name was Sarah, burned my grand uncle and all the members of his parish in the concentration camp of Jasenovac, executed and committed genocide against Serbs, Jews, and Roma. And while the Serbian royalist leader Draza Mihajlovic was executed, the Croat Nazi Ustasha leader, Pavelic died in the age of nearly 90 years in Argentina, his right hand Andrija Artukovic hada Mickey Mouse judgment in Zagreb and died in age of 85, and many other war criminals still live and write odious articles to ignorant American readers.

Mr. Kuhner should know better who started and when the last civil war in the former Yugoslavia. It was not in 1990 but in 1989, when irregulars started attacking the federal army., and expulse Serbs from Croatia. Before the war there were 12% of Serbs in Croatia, and if you go to CIA site and take a look at the recent data about Croatia, you will find out that there is only 3% of Serbs left there. So who committed crimes or ethnic cleansing, it is up to normal people to judge according to facts and figures and not fairy tales and stories.

Sincerely

Dragan Rakic

Strasbourg

France

EU

__________________________


2 posted on 02/08/2009 12:32:15 PM PST by Ravnagora
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To: Bokababe; kronos77

Ping!


3 posted on 02/08/2009 12:42:46 PM PST by Ravnagora
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To: Bokababe; kronos77

Ping!


4 posted on 02/08/2009 12:42:46 PM PST by Ravnagora
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To: Ravnagora

Who knows? During the war, there were more than atrocities to go around committed on both sides, by Nazis and Communists.

As for the current state of Croatia, who knows? I’d prefer to hear from someone who doesn’t have a dog in this fight, as this writer evidently does.


5 posted on 02/08/2009 1:01:26 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero

Not a whisper of Croatia’s islamification. I wonder why?


6 posted on 02/08/2009 1:20:45 PM PST by Nathan Zachary
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To: joan; Smartass; zagor-te-nej; Lion in Winter; Honorary Serb; jb6; Incorrigible; DTA; vooch; ...

7 posted on 02/08/2009 1:41:20 PM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Nathan Zachary

I take it that was a rhetorical question.


8 posted on 02/08/2009 1:48:21 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero
"As for the current state of Croatia, who knows? I’d prefer to hear from someone who doesn’t have a dog in this fight, as this writer evidently does."

There is something that the writer said, which doesn't quite makes sense to me. He said that Sanader controls the news source Javno. But Javno had the following report: Croatia Ruled by Mafia and Crime

If Sanader was Mafia and controlled Javno, you'd think that he wouldn't let them publish a headline like that.

9 posted on 02/08/2009 1:50:58 PM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Nathan Zachary

Maybe because Croatia is almost entirely Christian and less than 2% muslim? Serbia has almost twice as many muslim citizens as Croatia.


10 posted on 02/08/2009 1:55:01 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Nathan Zachary; Cicero; Diocletian

Correction: Serbia has over 4 times as many muslim citizens as Croatia.


11 posted on 02/08/2009 2:00:31 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Bokababe

I confess I have not really followed events in Croatia since the breakup, so I speak from ignorance. As far as I know, there may be some corruption—as there certain is, for instance, in Chicago or Washington—but things have been stable. That’s just a distant impression. But if things were really bad, we’d be hearing more about it.

As for economic troubles, what country isn’t having economic trouble these days?

I would have said, speaking mostly from ignorance, that Croatia did well to get out from under the Muslims, the Communists, the Nazis, and all the other malign forces that have been overrunning the region for the past century and more.

And that this reporter obviously is prejudiced.


12 posted on 02/08/2009 2:16:43 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero

They did well to get out from under the Serbs also.


13 posted on 02/08/2009 2:19:54 PM PST by Tailgunner Joe
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To: Cicero
"I confess I have not really followed events in Croatia since the breakup, so I speak from ignorance."

I do as well. I really haven't followed the events in Croatia that much. My cousin, a Croat who was living in the US, passed away five years ago so I lost my connection to what was happening there -- other than I did notice some stories on high profile murders of reporters in Croatia, showing up on B92.

14 posted on 02/08/2009 2:49:50 PM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Tailgunner Joe

Joe, go find a place in this forum where your ignorance isn’t so fully on display. Your postings on the Balkans threads are sub-moronic.


15 posted on 02/08/2009 4:58:08 PM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Ravnagora

Wow!


16 posted on 02/08/2009 8:42:13 PM PST by Dragonfly
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To: FormerLib
"Joe, go find a place in this forum where your ignorance isn’t so fully on display. Your postings on the Balkans threads are sub-moronic."

FormerLib, troll-feeding is strongly discouraged.

17 posted on 02/08/2009 10:08:02 PM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

Good point, but sometimes you just have to mock ignorance when it is so strongly displayed.


18 posted on 02/09/2009 5:36:14 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: Ravnagora

Dragan Rakic is an idiot.


19 posted on 02/09/2009 4:39:23 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Nathan Zachary

Croatia isn’t being Islamified.


20 posted on 02/09/2009 4:39:54 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Bokababe; Cicero; Tailgunner Joe
Jeffery T. Kuhner has been writing articles critical of Croatia's HDZ not out of some objective view, but rather because he is very, very close to Dr. Ivic Pasalic, the man who lost his leadership bid for the HDZ to the current leader Ivo Sanader by 55% to 45%. Sanader represents the moderate faction within the party and Pasalic represented the hard right nationalist faction that has since been expelled and dispersed amongst several other parties.

Pasalic was President Tudjman's main advisor during the post-war phase and was loathed by Croatia's liberals and those working for George Soros.

I don't have hard evidence, but it's not difficult to conclude that Mr. Kuhner is on Pasalic's payroll. Pasalic has tried several times to get back into the political game but the Sanader machine has been an effective one, both wiping out the hard right and sidelining Croatia's liberals and socialists time and time again.

As for Croatia being a mafia state, corruption is still typically high (but normal on a Balkan level) as four decades of communism have imprinted such poor business standards and politics on the country.

21 posted on 02/09/2009 4:44:43 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian

Seems to me that if the criticism is basically limited to reminders of the terrible atrocities committed all over the Balkans over 60 years ago, plus statements that Croatia is more crooked than the President of the US, that is praising with faint damns.


22 posted on 02/09/2009 4:58:46 PM PST by Lucius Cornelius Sulla ("men of intemperate minds cannot be free. Their passions forge their fetters." -- Edmund Burke)
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To: Lucius Cornelius Sulla

pretty much :)


23 posted on 02/09/2009 5:04:14 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian

Welcome back, Diocletian! Are you back from your visit to the former Yugo? How did that go, if you indeed went on your lecture tour already, or is that still in the future?

Now, I bite. Why is Dragan Rakic an idiot?

And have you taken a look at the thread about Croatia returning to the traditional naming of their children?


24 posted on 02/10/2009 5:57:40 AM PST by Ravnagora
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To: Diocletian; Ravnagora

DIVO-MAXIMO-DIOCLETIANO

Diocletian turned crimson with fury, and after glaring for a moment like a wild beast, screamed `Idiot!’.

`Nonsense!’ said Alice.


25 posted on 02/10/2009 9:46:54 AM PST by maher (Kuhner Rakic)
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To: Cicero

“I would have said, speaking mostly from ignorance, that Croatia did well to get out from under the Muslims, the Communists, the Nazis...”

The Muslims didn’t run Croatia. In WW II they and Albanians marched in Himmler’s SS together with the Croats, who called the Bosnian Muslims “the flower of Croatia.” Muslim SS units guarded the rail lines carting Jews to Auschwitz.

“If things were really bad, we’d be hearing more about it.”
As you say - uninformed. “As for economic troubles, what country isn’t having economic trouble these days?” —
Dubrovnik is now totally gangster-ridden. Croatia became an economic basket case and mafia “state” as soon as Yugoslavia was broken up by CRO, SLO and MU secession, backed by Germany, the US and the Vatican. (16 years of my education was in RC schools.)

Out from under the Nazis?” That IS uninformed. Croatia IS a Nazi statelet today. There was no de-Nazification by Tito; he let the Yugo-Nazis swap their SS badges for the Red Star. Chameleon is the “national bird” of those tribes. In Croatia today the Hitler salute is in fashion. People get beaten up if their accent isn’t considered Croatian. Serbs returning to their property in Croat-seized Serb lands or to get birth certificates in the new Croatia are arrested on trumped up charges. Death threats and murder are the pay-off for Croatian reporters who publish about murder of Serb civilians.
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=15898

What do we hear about the murder of Christians in Iraq (Assyrians, Chaldaean, Syriac, as they’re variously known). Precious little. Just Sunnis, Shia, Kurds. What have you heard about the Turkmen or Mandaeans being slaughtered in Iraq? You heard nothing about the impaling, burning, beheading of Serbs by Muslims in the villages around Srebrenica 1992-95, the kidnap and shipment of Serb kids from Sarajevo in the early 1990s to the sex bazaars of the Middle East. The media didn’t report the mujahedin show-and-tell with the salted heads of Serb women brought back as trophies to Saudi.

“If things were really bad, we’d be hearing more about it.”


26 posted on 02/10/2009 10:28:27 AM PST by maher (Kuhner, Rakic)
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To: maher

Sorry, I don’t buy it. Some of the Balkan statelets and groups marched with Hitler. Some marched with Stalin. Some managed to march with both. Decent people caught in the middle were lucky to get out from under both these oppressive totalitarian systems, which are commonly said to be opposites, but were, in fact, much the same.


27 posted on 02/10/2009 10:43:44 AM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: Cicero
Sorry, I don’t buy it. Some of the Balkan statelets and groups marched with Hitler. Some marched with Stalin. Some managed to march with both. Decent people caught in the middle were lucky to get out from under both these oppressive totalitarian systems, which are commonly said to be opposites, but were, in fact, much the same.

Re WWII: In most of Europe and even the Balkans, much of what you said is true.

However, WWII Croatia WAS a unique case. The only WWII deathcamps in Europe not run by Nazi Germany were in Croatia. Look up Jasenovac or Croatian Ustashe just as overviews. Croatia was a particularly brutal and sadistic state during WWII, with behavior that even appalled Germans.

28 posted on 02/10/2009 11:51:39 AM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe; Cicero; montyspython; getoffmylawn
After being corrected, you still refer to them as deathcamps. How could they be "death camps" when people were reguarly released from them after time served, good behaviour, amnesty?

Cicero: beware of Serbian propagandists and their claims. The Jasenovac Research Institute for example engaged in a gross lie in which they published the names of 700,000 purported victims of the Ustashi in Jasenovac. It turned out that over 90% of the names were names of those who perished elsewhere, hundreds of thousands of which were on the Axis side during the war!

At last count, I've found 110 relatives on the list and I can assure you that not one of them was a victim of Ustashi terror. For instance, two of my greatgrandparents were killed in an Allied air raid in October 1944, but both their names appear on the list of "victims of Ustashi terror" on the Jasenovac Research Institute site.

Always, always take Serbian claims with a two handfuls of salt.

29 posted on 02/10/2009 11:57:02 AM PST by Diocletian
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To: Ravnagora
Let's tear this nonsense from Mr. Rakic to shreds:

Why should the Nazi try to escape the justice? Because they were Croats or because they committed crimes, maybe worse than German Nazis did in Yugoslavia.

Croatians weren't Nazis. They were either Ustashi, Domobrans, or Partisans. The attempt to form a Nazi party in Croatia was halted by the NDH regime and the party banned from ever assembling.

Those “good” Croat Nazis murdered a cousin of mine just because her name was Sarah, burned my grand uncle and all the members of his parish in the concentration camp of Jasenovac, executed and committed genocide against Serbs, Jews, and Roma.

Your personal anecdotes are worthless Mr. Rakic.

As for those in Bleiburg, the majority were not Ustashi but were Domobrans who were quite different from the Ustashi....and many of those were recently mobilized teenagers. Apart from that, you had women and children who were escaping the communist regime.

Alongside them, you had Montenegrin Chetniks who didn't want any part of life under communism just like those Croatian people.

And while the Serbian royalist leader Draza Mihajlovic was executed, the Croat Nazi Ustasha leader, Pavelic died in the age of nearly 90 years in Argentina, his right hand Andrija Artukovic hada Mickey Mouse judgment in Zagreb and died in age of 85, and many other war criminals still live and write odious articles to ignorant American readers.

Ante Pavelic died not at 90, but at 70 and not in Argentina, but in Madrid, Spain, from complications stemming from an assassination attempt.

Andrija Artukovic was like Draza Mihailovic, subjected to a communist show trial in which Artukovic wasn't allowed to present evidence in his defense nor call witnesses to his defense.

Mr. Kuhner should know better who started and when the last civil war in the former Yugoslavia. It was not in 1990 but in 1989, when irregulars started attacking the federal army., and expulse Serbs from Croatia.

Utter crap. The first fight in Croatia occurred at Plitvice in 1990 between Croatian police forces and Serbian irregulars. There was no fighting in 1989. The first fighting between the JNA and Croatian forces didn't take place until the spring of 1991 when the JNA took the Serb side and attempted to steal Croatian land.

Before the war there were 12% of Serbs in Croatia, and if you go to CIA site and take a look at the recent data about Croatia, you will find out that there is only 3% of Serbs left there. So who committed crimes or ethnic cleansing, it is up to normal people to judge according to facts and figures and not fairy tales and stories.

Tell us how many Croatians remained within the borders of the "RSK" and "RS" and you'll see that the answer to the question is that the Serbs did by far the most ethnic cleansing during those wars.

30 posted on 02/10/2009 12:05:56 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian
Cicero: beware of Serbian propagandists and their claims...Always, always take Serbian claims with a two handfuls of salt.

But lap up with a spoon whatever Croatian revisionism you hand out that is completely unsupported by any evidence out there, even Jewish and American sources?

Cicero is a grownup and will believe what he wishes -- he doesn't need to be told what to do by you.

And BTW, Professor Maher is Irish.

31 posted on 02/10/2009 12:07:28 PM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe
What evidence do you want? Are you denying that the Jasenovac Research Institute openly lied about the names they posted on the list?

Are you denying the fact that the Yugoslav regime inflated the numbers of war dead even after Milovan Djilas admitted that they did so?

32 posted on 02/10/2009 12:08:55 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Cicero
There was no de-Nazification by Tito; he let the Yugo-Nazis swap their SS badges for the Red Star.

Maher wrongly calls Ustashi "Yugo-Nazis". As for his claim, he is totally wrong since Tito's Partisans never extended amnesty to Ustashi but Serbian Chetniks were granted amnesty if they crossed over until late 1944.

Maher is either misinformed or purposely lying.

33 posted on 02/10/2009 12:10:49 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian

The great irony on this thread is seeing the Serb contingent cheer on Tudjman supporter Jeffrey T. Kuhner in his criticism of the Sanader regime. Funny stuff.


34 posted on 02/10/2009 12:46:53 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian
Are you denying that the Jasenovac Research Institute openly lied about the names they posted on the list? Are you denying the fact that the Yugoslav regime inflated the numbers of war dead even after Milovan Djilas admitted that they did so?

Show me where I either "asserted" or "denied" either of those things here, Dio. You are the one bringing it up.

The great irony on this thread is seeing the Serb contingent cheer on Tudjman supporter Jeffrey T. Kuhner in his criticism of the Sanader regime. Funny stuff.

Show me where I "cheered on Tudjman supporter Jeffrey T. Kuhner in his criticism of the Sanader regime". If you bother to read my posts, I said I didn't know anything about it and that something Kuhner said didn't make sense.

Now you are the one Dio, who is so insistent on slamming statements -- some of which weren't even made -- as "Serb propaganda" that you are whizzing around left field. Get a grip, Dio!

35 posted on 02/10/2009 1:19:12 PM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe

Post #34 was not in reference to you. As for the rest, it puts to rest your incorrect suggestions that my position is somehow unfounded. That’s why I mentioned the JRI and Djilas. So either you agree with me or you don’t on those points.


36 posted on 02/10/2009 1:21:13 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian
So let me get this straight, you are saying that Jasenovac is not a death camp because technically it "let people go"?

Please don't start that crap again because as a Catholic you should not be playing games with moral relativism by whitewashing Croat crimes with technicalities. I have dead relatives as a result of Jasenovac that would disagree with you so put a sock in it.

37 posted on 02/10/2009 1:43:20 PM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: montyspython
Oh please spare me your "my family member died in Jasenovac" crap. A tragedy is a tragedy is a tragedy whether that person was killed by Ustashi in Jasenovac, by Partisans in the town square, or by Chetniks in the hills.

Jasenovac was a concentration camp complex in which there were prison camps, labour camps, and in which executions of people innocent of crimes and guilty of crimes did take place.

Labelling it a "death camp" makes it seem that the purpose of the camp was wholly one of executions when the facts simply show that it wasn't the case.

It's akin to how Brezovo Polje was mislabeled as a "rape camp" simply because some rapes by Serbs of Muslim women took place there when it fact the camp was simply a prison camp with some random internees.

You guys don't like it when media exaggerates about Serbs, so therefore you should understand why I don't like it when it happens to my people.

38 posted on 02/10/2009 1:50:49 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian

The Ustashi claimed to have killed 1 million Serbs. Were they just bragging?


39 posted on 02/10/2009 1:59:55 PM PST by getoffmylawn (You go in the cage? Cage goes in the water? You go in the water? Shark's in the water? OUR shark??)
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To: Diocletian
You have completely gone off the deep end and that's that. You are trying so hard to put a positive spin on the Croatian image that you have completely destroyed any moral position you have purported to have taken or will take in the future.

So to sit there with a straight face trying to gloss over a systematic attempt at killing thousands of human beings on the grounds of technicalities in nomenclature in order to help you Croats feel good about yourselves is simply pathetic.

40 posted on 02/10/2009 2:12:33 PM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: getoffmylawn

You know, give or take a few thousand. Dio will simply deduct away a few thousand and bark about how misunderstood the Ustashi were and that Jasenovac was really a spa retreat.


41 posted on 02/10/2009 2:15:57 PM PST by montyspython (Love that chicken from Popeye's)
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To: getoffmylawn

It’s simply impossible since only 530,000 Serbs died during WW2 across the whole of Yugoslavia. So whoever made that claim was full of crap.


42 posted on 02/10/2009 2:31:26 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: montyspython
Feel free to point out anything that I have said that is factually incorrect. You need to rein in your emotionalism on this topic.

The simple fact is that you guys don't like it when Serbian crimes are exaggerated so you guys should be the first to understand why we don't like it when Croatian crimes are exaggerated.

Or do you support a double-standard?

43 posted on 02/10/2009 2:32:49 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: montyspython

Where have I denied that bad things went on at Jasenovac?


44 posted on 02/10/2009 2:34:40 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Cicero

I’m not selling. You are simply innocent. Croats marched with Hitler, then with Stalin. — if you hired a hall in 1991-1992 in the USA and filled it with Serbs and asked them all to raise their hands if they came from Serbia, you got close to zero. These Serbs were cut off from Serbia in gerrymandered Croatia and Bosnia-Herzegovina.

Serbs who served in the Yugoslav Army, fought Hitler in 1941 and were POWs in Germany, never went back to Churchill-FDR Yalta Yugoslavia.


45 posted on 02/10/2009 2:42:55 PM PST by maher (Kuhner, Rakic)
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To: Cicero

Take it from this dog — Irish-American, brougt up Catholic by an Irish mother and an Irish-Amrican father, studied for the RC priesthood, learnt Serbo-Croat in the Cold War, served in US Army CIC, married an Austrian girl, whose mother and father spoke Slovenian. Whaddya say now?


46 posted on 02/10/2009 2:48:06 PM PST by maher (Kuhner, Rakic)
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To: maher
Serbs who served in the Yugoslav Army, fought Hitler in 1941 and were POWs in Germany, never went back to Churchill-FDR Yalta Yugoslavia.

Yet you fail to mention how Kosta Pecanac, Serbian war hero and head of the Chetniks, automatically put his forces at the disposal of the Germans upon the Yugoslav capitulation.

Yet you fail to mention the Serbian Volunteer Force put together by the Germans.

Yet you forget to mention Dmitrije Ljotic the Serbian Fascist leader of the Zbor Party who put his forces at the disposal of the Germans and who at the end of the war pushed for Mihailovic's Chetniks and Pavelic's Ustasha to regroup in Slovenia and Austria to create a common "anti-communist" force to fight Tito.

And yet you forget about Djujic's Chetniks in Croatia who never once fought the Italians nor Germans and fought on their side and accepted weapons from them.

And yet you forgot to mention the Chetniks of Hercegovina through Serbian politician Dobrosav Jevdjevic who sided with the Italians and later the Germans.

And yet you forget to mention Mihailovic's Chetniks in Serbia who accepted weapons from the Germans.

And you forget to mention Major Dangic's Eastern Bosnian Chetniks who signed an accord with the Germans only a few months after the start of the war to pursue a common anti-Partisan strategy.

Most Serbian forces collaborated in varying degrees.

47 posted on 02/10/2009 2:49:03 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian
Serbian Volunteer Corps aka Ljoticevci. These are Serbian volunteers who sided with the Germans and fought under them.

Serbian priest Aleksa Todorovic blessing the SVC soldiers:


48 posted on 02/10/2009 2:57:44 PM PST by Diocletian
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To: Diocletian
"Serbian Volunteer Corps aka Ljoticevci.

Yes, the Ljoticevi existed. But how large was this group, Dio? The Ljoticevi couldn't even win a single local election before the war -- they were a tiny faction, probably proportionally smaller than the American Nazi Party!

So you take a tiny faction, empowered by Germany only after Germany conquered Yugoslavia, and turn it into "all Serbs". That's nuts!

And how was Mihailovic supposed to be "pro-German" when he rescued 500 American Airmen even after the US had switched sides to Tito. Mihajlovic's Cetniks were killing Ljoticevi, so please tell me which one was pro-German? Mihailovic and the Ljoticevi can't all have been supporting Germany while they were killing each other!

You think that you are defending Croatia by distorting Serbia's WWII history -- you aren't. You are just dragging a red herring into the argument.

It's the same kind of red herring that you've used with "Jasenovac wasn't a death camp because there were people who were released from there". You provided me with a "list of those released from Jasonovac", and when I looked at it, I realized that the names were virtually all Croats! Yes, some "Croat dissidents" may have been released from Jasenovac, but that didn't render it "not a deathcamp" for Serbs, Jews and Gypsies!

You are preying on the ignorance of the uninformed in selling "a story" that does not fit the historical evidence.

49 posted on 02/10/2009 4:11:32 PM PST by Bokababe ( http://www.savekosovo.org)
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To: Bokababe
Yes, the Ljoticevi existed. But how large was this group, Dio? The Ljoticevi couldn't even win a single local election before the war -- they were a tiny faction, probably proportionally smaller than the American Nazi Party!

The Ljoticevci weren't the only group, Bokababe. They're just one example. As for not winning a single election, neither did the Ustashe in Croatia.

So you take a tiny faction, empowered by Germany only after Germany conquered Yugoslavia, and turn it into "all Serbs". That's nuts!

Nowhere have I said "all Serbs". Nor is that the only faction. We can discuss the Chetniks under Kosta Pecanac, the units under Milan Nedic, the various MVAC forces, etc.

And how was Mihailovic supposed to be "pro-German" when he rescued 500 American Airmen even after the US had switched sides to Tito.

Because Mihailovic played a double game. He was actively engaged in a civil war with the Partisans and willingly taking German weapons and assistance to wipe them out all the while hoping that the Allies would land on the Dalmatian coast at which point his forces were to turn against the Axis.

Recall though that this refers specifically to those Chetniks under his direct control. Other Chetnik groups under Draza's Ravna Gora Movement began collaboration much, much earlier with most never having had fought the Axis. Examples include Djujic's Dinarska Chetnicka Divizija which was legalized by the Italian Fascists as an MVAC force and which later took part in combined actions with Germans and Ustashi forces against the Partisans in and around Knin and which were rescued by the Germans after being routed by the Partisans in Northern Dalmatia.

Another example includes the Chetnik head of Central Bosnia Uros Drenovic who like Djujic took weapons from the Germans, assisted in their offensives, and signed deals with the Ustashi for joint actions and patrols.

The rule in the areas west of the Drina was for Chetnik units to serve as Axis auxillaries after the fall of 1941 to the end of the war with minimal exceptions.

Mihajlovic's Cetniks were killing Ljoticevi, so please tell me which one was pro-German? Mihailovic and the Ljoticevi can't all have been supporting Germany while they were killing each other!

Mihailovic's Chetniks and Ljotic's forces occasionally skirmished, but by 1944 they were in open alliance and the Chetniks faciliatated Ljotic's move to Slovenia where Draza instructed Ljotic to find out the situation with the Slovene Chetniks and to try to build an anti-communist coalition with Croatian forces against Tito.

Recall also that Momcilo Djujic of Dalmatia was a follower of Dmitrije Ljotic while at the same time being a Vojvoda in Mihailovic's Ravna Gora Movement.

You think that you are defending Croatia by distorting Serbia's WWII history -- you aren't. You are just dragging a red herring into the argument.

Everything I've said is factual and can be documented.

It's the same kind of red herring that you've used with "Jasenovac wasn't a death camp because there were people who were released from there". You provided me with a "list of those released from Jasonovac", and when I looked at it, I realized that the names were virtually all Croats! Yes, some "Croat dissidents" may have been released from Jasenovac, but that didn't render it "not a deathcamp" for Serbs, Jews and Gypsies!

The list I provided you, one of several that still exist, have names from all those groups.

You are preying on the ignorance of the uninformed in selling "a story" that does not fit the historical evidence.

Once again, everything I have stated is factual and can be documented from different sources, none of them from NDH.

As an example Bokababe, which units defended the town of Benkovac in Dalmatia from the Partisans and fought side by side? Take a wild guess.

As for Jasenovac, the bulk of the civilians taken there came from the Kozara during Operation Kozara. Besides German and Croatian units guess which Serbian units took part in that offensive on the Axis side?

50 posted on 02/10/2009 4:41:08 PM PST by Diocletian
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