Shelby discusses stimulus bill, other issues (Questions Obama's Citizenship* (Uh-Oh))

The Cullman Times ^ | February 21, 2009 | Patrick McCreless

[Michael Michael]

McCain's father's active duty status with the U.S. military defined his jurisdiction. Therefore McCain was a citizen by birth and possibly even a "natural born" citizen as well. Military officers remain subject to the full jurisdiction of the U.S. military and under the direct control of the U.S. chain of command regardless of where they go.

You clearly have a serious problem when it comes to language comprehension.

First, the term "jurisdiction" in the Fourteenth Amendment refers specifically to the person born. Not their parents. "All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof..."

Second, in order to be anything other than a naturalized citizen, you must have been born IN the United States. If you were born outside the United States, then any issue with regard to jurisdiction is moot. Because if you weren't born in the United States, you can't be anything other than a naturalized citizen if you're a citizen at all.

[Polarik]

What is your political ideology and what are your political affiliations? You're a regular poster on a decidedly conservative forum. Why shouldn't your reports on the COLB be similarly dismissed due to your political leanings?

Because my critics don't need a valid reason to dismiss me. It's their sacred mission in life.

But, if you must know, I have no political affiliations and my only leanings are in the direction of my God, my Country, and my conscience. I am a Constitutionalist, as are most of the people on FR.

If you did more checking, you would find that this forum is decidedly nonpartisan when it comes to not wanting a narcissistic, racist, megalomanic, radical Leftist/Marxist/Fascist, anti-American, anti-Constitution, Anti-Israel, Anti-Semitic illegally-elected FRAUD as President, who is fleecing our pockets, holding our freedoms hostage, and Hell-bent on destroying this country before his first 100 days are gone.

Or, to put it another way, it's NOT the "change" that the other half of America "believes in." Do you need to ask me in which half I am?

Also, the last time I checked, I was not the one making a conscious effort to get a narcissistic, racist, megalomanic, radical Leftist/Marxist/Fascist, anti-American, anti-Constitution, Anti-Israel, Anti-Semitic illegally-elected FRAUD as President, who is fleecing our pockets, holding our freedoms hostage, and Hell-bent on destroying this country before his first 100 days are gone.

That honor goes to the nonpartisan Factcheck group.

But, you're right on your first comment. The fact that Soros gave Annenberg money to create the Chicago Annenberg Challenge and to elect a totally-inexperienced Obama to chair and run it along with domestic terrorist, William Ayers, as his second in command, is far more inherently relevant to why there is a fraud and usurper currently in the White House.

[MHGinTN]

Yowser!

[Michael Michael]

I am a Constitutionalist...

Yeah?

Judging by the entourage you brought along with you, I'd have thought you were some sort of hip-hop artist or something.

[Iowan]

Many thanks, Polarik

Excellent response.

Ping.

[Cyropaedia]

You clearly have a serious problem when it comes to language comprehension.

I guess there must be an awful lot of lawmakers on Capitol Hill that suffer from the same "comprehension" problem.

That Senate resolution declaring McCain to be a natural born citizen was passed by unanimous consent (including everyone on the Judiciary Committee). So everyone there on both sides of the political divide agreed that McCain was a citizen by birth, -at the very least. Even Obama himself served as a co-sponsor of the resolution.

Looks like they fully agreed with the arguments made by Tribe and Olson. So, no, you don't necessarily have to be born inside the United States to acquire citizenship at birth.

[Polarik]

Judging by the entourage you brought along with you, I'd have thought you were some sort of hip-hop artist or something.

Is this some sort of bad rap?

[Michael Michael]

Is this some sort of bad rap?

Ha! Good comeback!

[Polarik]

Ha! Good comeback!

Why thank you, my friend.

[Michael Michael]

Why thank you, my friend.

Friend? I haven't heard from you since October. What sort of friend is that? ;)

[Michael Michael]

You clearly have a serious problem when it comes to language comprehension.

I guess there must be an awful lot of lawmakers on Capitol Hill that suffer from the same "comprehension" problem.

Nice how you weasel out of the original context of that comment.

As for the lawmakers on Capitol Hill, are you kidding me? I wouldn't give you two cents for the lot of 'em. You'd think their only job was to keep the Government Printing Office in business, printing fatter and fatter budgets and fatter and fatter tax codes.

That Senate resolution declaring McCain to be a natural born citizen was passed by unanimous consent (including everyone on the Judiciary Committee).

First, it was just a simple resolution, which had absolutely no force of law. Second, did you ever actually read it? You'd think they had never even heard of the Fourteenth Amendment. They weaseled around it just like you have weaseled around your claim that the US military was some sort of extra-constitutional entity, operating wholly outside the Constitution itself.

[Polarik]

Friend? I haven't heard from you since October. What sort of friend is that? ;)

Well, I don't read my mail much these days...but I do keep you in mind whenever I need some inspiration.

[Cyropaedia]

As for the lawmakers on Capitol Hill, are you kidding me? I wouldn't give you two cents for the lot of 'em. You'd think their only job was to keep the Government Printing Office in business, printing fatter and fatter budgets and fatter and fatter tax codes.

Avoiding the issue.

First, it was just a simple resolution, which had absolutely no force of law. Second, did you ever actually read it? You'd think they had never even heard of the Fourteenth Amendment. They weaseled around it just like you have weaseled around your claim that the US military was some sort of extra-constitutional entity, operating wholly outside the Constitution itself.

First of all, they assert that there really is no need to have the force of law in the first place. Secondly, they have read the Fourteenth Amendment.

I never claimed that the military operated outside of the Constitution; just that the Constitution recognized two different jurisdictions, procedures and exemptions for civilians and the military. McCain's father remained under the direct jurisdiction of the U.S. due to his status as a military officer.

For starters, what exactly is wrong about Tribe and Olson's arguments...? Please be specific.

[Michael Michael]

Well, I don't read my mail much these days...but I do keep you in mind whenever I need some inspiration.

Well...

Okay.

[Michael Michael]

First of all, they assert that there really is no need to have the force of law in the first place.

Well, in spite of all the jokes about McCain's age, he WAS born after the ratification of the Fourteenth Amendment, which is what covers citizenship of the United States. If you're not a US citizen under the Fourteenth Amendment, you're simply not a US citizen.

I never claimed that the military operated outside of the Constitution; just that the Constitution recognized two different jurisdictions, procedures and exemptions for civilians and the military.

Let's have Sherman turn the Wayback Machine to your statement which started this whole issue and before you started weaseling all over the place:

When both parents are U.S. citizens, and one is active duty personnel, and the spouse is a military dependent, then the UCMJ considers their child to be a natural born citizen regardless of where the birth takes place.

I replied, asking you how it was that the UCMJ trumped the Constitution.

This was your response:

Because the military operates under its own official jurisdiction via the UCMJ.

So there you have it.

I asked you how the UCMJ trumped the Constitution, and you said because the military operates under its own official jurisdiction under the UCMJ.

Now tell me, how can the UCMJ trump the Constitution unless it were wholly separate from the Constitution?

Here's the bottom line. You started out making the incredibly ignorant claim that the UCMJ considers children born to active duty personnel to be "natural born citizens" regardless of where they are born, in spite of the fact that the UCMJ says absolutely nothing at all regarding citizenship, natural born or otherwise.

When I asked you how the UCMJ trumped the Constitution, you compounded your original ignorant claim with yet another ignorant claim, that the military via the UCMJ operates outside the Constitution.

And you've been trying to weasel out of it ever since.

McCain's father remained under the direct jurisdiction of the U.S. due to his status as a military officer.

And again, you apparently can't comprehend simple English. Whatever "jurisdiction" regarding McCain's father is irrelevant to McCain himself. That's because the Fourteenth Amendment speaks of the PERSON BORN, not their parents.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States, and of the state wherein they reside...

Where do you see anything in there about parents? Just quote the exact words that you're reading and interpreting to mean the parents of the person born. Otherwise, your yammering on about McCain's father is irrelevant.

[Cyropaedia]

Now tell me, how can the UCMJ trump the Constitution unless it were wholly separate from the Constitution?

Look, I'll make this simple so that even an idiot such as yourself can understand the issue. The UCMJ does not exist separate from the Constitution, but operates with in the Constitution for the purpose of giving the Government direct control over all military personnel so that the Government can undertake the all important responsibility of National Defense.

Look at it this way : Both diplomats and military are government employees. Both the military and the Diplomatic corps are specifically required to take official oaths of allegiance to our Government as a prerequisite for official service. Both groups are required to perform necessary government functions within foreign countries. And it is necessary for our government to maintain direct jurisdiction and control over both groups so they are able to carry out those functions. Think of it as two arms that are part of the same body.

The UCMJ allows the Government to exercise full authority and control over military personnel regardless of the area and laws in which they happen to reside. It doesn't matter what the laws are in a given state or municipality. Even if a soldier commits a "non military" crime outside of a military installation against a civilian, the soldier is still tried by military officers in a military court. The government maintains control over the soldier regardless of the jurisdiction of the state or local in which the crime occurred.

Likewise, even if a soldier or officer commits a "non military" crime such as rape or theft against a foreign civilian in their host country (outside of a military installation), that individual is still tried by our military officers in a U.S. military court because our government maintains that it's jurisdiction (via the UCMJ) still supersedes the host nation's own jurisdiction; even in circumstances such as these.

Now, there may separate treaties or official agreements with a particular country that does allow them to prosecute our military personnel in their own courts for a particular set of crimes. But this kind of arrangement is contingent upon a particular contract of treaty with the nation in question. Our government wants to maintain control over all military personnel as SOP.

Olson and Tribe contend that this kind of *supra -national* jurisdiction and control works both ways for citizens involved with military service that have taken an official oath declaring direct and immediate allegiance to our country and its government. Their children are citizens by birth, because the parent is subject to the full and complete jurisdiction of the U.S. Government. Jurisdiction, as Trumbull specifically stated, is defined by national allegiance. The parents' status at the time of birth defines the child's status at birth. It works this way with all groups.

And remember, the family was outside of the country at the time because because of the parent(s) military duties.

[Michael Michael]

Look, I'll make this simple so that even an idiot such as yourself can understand the issue. The UCMJ does not exist separate from the Constitution, but operates with in the Constitution for the purpose of giving the Government direct control over all military personnel so that the Government can undertake the all important responsibility of National Defense.

Great. Now show me where the UCMJ says anything about citizenship. Because you said, and I quote, "...the UCMJ considers their child to be a natural born citizen regardless of where the birth takes place."

You can't. Because it doesn't.

You call ME an idiot, yet you demonstrate that you don't even have the slightest clue what the UCMJ is.

Here's a subtitle to give you just a bit of a hint:

Congressional Code of Military Criminal Law applicable to all military members worldwide.

Right. McCain's birth was covered under military CRIMINAL LAW.

*sigh*

[Cyropaedia]

Great. Now show me where the UCMJ says anything about citizenship. Because you said, and I quote, "...the UCMJ considers their child to be a natural born citizen regardless of where the birth takes place."

Is a U.S. citizen who is active duty military personnel subject to the full and complete jurisdiction of the United States government...? Yes. And and given the fact that his spouse is also a U.S. citizen then their child is a citizen by birth. That is what Olson and Tribe claim. They're correct.

That is what this whole argument is about.