Posted on 02/25/2009 12:56:35 AM PST by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit
Research by TU Delft proves that Dutch power stations are able to cope at any time in the future with variations in demand for electricity and supply of wind power, as long as use is made of up-to-date wind forecasts. PhD candidate Bart Ummels also demonstrates that there is no need for energy storage facilities. Ummels will receive his PhD on this topic on Thursday 26 February.
Wind is variable and can only partially be predicted. The large-scale use of wind power in the electricity system is therefore tricky. PhD candidate Bart Ummels MSc. investigated the consequences of using a substantial amount of wind power within the Dutch electricity system. He used simulation models, such as those developed by Dutch transmission system operator TenneT, to pinpoint potential problems (and solutions).
His results indicate that wind power requires greater flexibility from existing power stations. Sometimes larger reserves are needed, but more frequently power stations will have to decrease production in order to make room for wind-generated power. It is therefore essential to continually recalculate the commitment of power stations using the latest wind forecasts. This reduces potential forecast errors and enables wind power to be integrated more efficiently.
Ummels looked at wind power up to 12 GW, 8 GW of which at sea, which is enough to meet about one third of the Netherlands' demand for electricity. Dutch power stations are able to cope at any time in the future with variations in demand for electricity and supply of wind power, as long as use is made of up-to-date, improved wind forecasts. It is TenneT's task to integrate large-scale wind power into the electricity grid. Lex Hartman, TenneT's Director of Corporate Development: "in a joint effort, TU Delft and TenneT further developed the simulation model that can be used to study the integration of large-scale wind power. The results show that in the Netherlands we can integrate between 4 GW and 10 GW into the grid without needing any additional measures.
Surpluses
Ummels: 'Instead of the common question 'What do we do when the wind isn't blowing?', the more relevant question is 'Where do we put all the electricity if it is very windy at night?'. This is because, for instance, a coal-fired power station cannot simply be turned off. One solution is provided by the international trade in electricity, because other countries often can use the surplus. Moreover, a broadening of the 'opening hours' of the international electricity market benefits wind power. At the moment, utilities determine one day ahead how much electricity they intend to purchase or sell abroad. Wind power can be better used if the time difference between the trade and the wind forecast is smaller.'
No energy storage
Ummels' research also demonstrates that energy storage is not required. The results indicate that the international electricity market is a promising and cheaper solution for the use of wind power.
Making power stations more flexible is also better than storage. The use of heating boilers, for instance, means that combined heat and power plants operate more flexibly, which can consequently free up capacity for wind power at night.
The use of wind power in the Dutch electricity system could lead to a reduction in production costs of EUR1.5 billion annually and a reduction in CO2 emissions of 19 million tons a year.
Thought you might be interested ping.
Well, good luck to them... And they are worried about excess electricity generated by coal-fired plants? Only in Bizarro World it makes any sense.
Here is where the wind hits the fan: Shocking Cost of Green Energy? ..... I’m no electrical engineer, but I saw one report that said the kind of transmission line needed to carry the variable jolts of juice that come from renewable power plants is different from the line needed to carry uniform current from a traditional generating plant. That means the new lines can’t simply hook onto existing lines, and that, of course, multiplies the cost of the transmission lines needed for renewable plants. Regardless, it is a certainty that the cost of the new lines will be shocking. One report from electric grid operators that came out a few weeks ago said the cost to build new transmission lines nationwide for wind power will be $100 billion. Add that to the more than $700 billion to build wind farms in the western Great Plains and elsewhere, and you’ve got an amount equal to the big stimulus package signed last week, and that’s just for one renewable energy source. Ratepayers, of course, will get stuck with the bill for that. Oh, and you know you can count on another thing: lawsuits. Stretching new high-voltage lines across virgin land will mean getting the assent of landowners and various authorities. That will create quibbles about compensation, which, in turn, will cause delays and legal expenses – and add to the cost of building the transmission lines. ..... Environmentalists like to say that with renewable energy, the fuel is free. That’s true, except that with almost anything free, there are plenty of costs.
Charles Crumpley is editor of the Business Journal - 2/23/2009
I have no quibble with renewable energy per se. If it works to rid the country of its dependance on Saudi Arabian gas and oil, Im not left with the sneaking suspicion that every time I fill up a tank of regular unleaded, Im contribution a few dollars more towards people who fund people who will kill Americans.
I’m no electrical engineer, but I saw one report that said the kind of transmission line needed to carry the variable jolts of juice that come from renewable power plants is different from the line needed to carry uniform current from a traditional generating plant
What you really are talking about so-called “energy independence”...
While conceptually a laudable goal, it’s an issue that’s entirely different and separate from “alternative” / “renewable” / “environmentally sustainable” / “green” / “clean” / “cheap” energy.
The issues and terms are not interchangeable and should not be confused just because they are intermingled by liberals and in the media.
Fine if the forecasts are highly reliable, but since when are weather forecasts reliable? I wonder what level of outage was considered acceptable.
I would think that nuclear plants and natural gas plants could adjust power output much faster than coal fired.
I used to do a lot of coastal/off shore sailing. All wind forecasts are junk.
Not true - only half of them are junk.
You just don't know which half until afterward.
Was it really necessary to keep reading after that? I mean, he doesn't cite the report. It is like saying I heard someone say something about something and then simply because it comes out of his mouth you believe it. I assume you don't believe EVERYTHING you read so I guess you just missed that part while skimming.
Given that there are concurrently huge efforts to work on demand management involving both industry and homes, combining the two would enable the reduction of large amounts of spinning reserve regardless.
Generally speaking we are not talking about getting rid of existing capital stock, but rather how to use it combined with wind power to more effectively provide consistent power. Lowering peak load would be a huge benefit and more reliable wind power forecasts would enable that.
One knowledgeable FReeper once told me that when a wind plant suddenly goes online, a traditional power plant goes to “hot spinning standby”, or in other words, kept running but generating nothing, because the traditional plant can’t just be switched off and allowed to cool down. So while the pretty wind turbines spin, the coal-fired turbines spin also, just waiting for the wind to stop. This seriously detracts from the energy savings.
To a certain extent this is true. Naturally the wind tends to be blowing always somewhere over a large geographic area AND, predicting this to some extent to allow Utilities to turn off this spare capacity is really what the article is about.
Concurrently the question must be raised - what happens if the report is wrong? It can be wrong on the up or downside. Naturally a black out is worse than wasted electricity, but it would be a shame to waste the electricity.
To solve this problem a utility needs a back-up plan. This is why a more interactive grid is necessary.
Imagine if to avoid a power surge, rather than having gas turbines on rolling stand-by, that a power company could just temporarily switch off the heat element in 1 million dryers, or the pump in dishwahers?
Why not also use excess wind to run a refrigerator (even if it had not fully reached the programmed switch-on temperature)? A fridge is just a battery to store cold air anyway. You don’t always wait to charge your mobile until it is empty, why always wait to charge the fridge? Why not cool it down when the energy is cheapest and most available?
To do this will require a box that communicates with your appliances and communicates with a utility (generally about price). The is already being worked on in several places. In the US the most prominent is the PNNL GridWise program.
Anyone who claims to be a conservative who does not believe America is clever enough to be energy independent (without drilling) is not a real conservative and is not a real patriot.
Indeed and perfect wind forecasts would make everything even better. My point is that I don't think its probable to get good wind forecasts in the same time frame as required by a coal burning power plant.
You are right, but generally coal does not provide back-up power, gas does. If the peaks and troughs could be smoothed out a bit, as with some demand side management, then it basically the amount of necessary available back up could also go down (along with losses and capital costs).
Yes, as I said in my original post, specifically because the article referenced coal fired plants. I think nuclear could be much more flexible as well.
I didn't miss that part because I remembered that report - it's very recent and it was more than $700B:
New Grid for Renewable Energy Could Be Costly - FR (WSJ), February 9, 2009
You can read this report, too, and then read further, if that's your only objection.
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