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U.S. Gun Trial Echoes in Drug-Torn Mexico (2nd Amendment Alert)
Wall Street Journal ^ | March 2, 2009 | Joel Millman

Posted on 03/02/2009 8:04:34 AM PST by Zakeet

This week, an Arizona gun shop goes on trial in state court in what law-enforcement officials are calling a landmark case against gun dealers who sell weapons that end up in the hands of Mexican drug cartels, fueling horrific violence south of the border that killed more than 6,000 people last year.

X-Caliber Guns LLC, is accused of knowingly selling hundreds of weapons, mostly AK-47s, to buyers who were posing as fronts for Mexican drug gangs. The gun store's owner, 47-year-old George Iknadosian, has maintained his innocence in court filings.

While the U.S. has long pressed Mexico to stop the flow of illegal drugs such as cocaine from crossing the border heading north, Mexico has complained that the U.S. doesn't stop the flow of guns heading south. Mexican and U.S. officials estimate that more than 90% of the weapons used by Mexican drug cartels come from the U.S.

Consider what happened last year in the Mexican border city of Nogales. The chief of the Sonora state anti-drug unit, Juan Manuel Pavón, was murdered by cartel hit men, just hours after attending a U.S. seminar on how to resist the tide of American firearms surging into Mexico. Several weapons linked to the crime traced back to X-Caliber Guns.

"The three highest priorities for me in terms of U.S. cooperation in the drugs war are these: guns, guns, guns," Mexican Attorney General Eduardo Medina Mora said in a recent interview with The Wall Street Journal. "These drug groups intimidate society and government because of their firepower. And their firepower comes from the U.S."

(Excerpt) Read more at online.wsj.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Crime/Corruption; Mexico; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: 2ndamendment; banglist; crime; drugwarconsequences; guns; mexico; thankprohibition

According to the Feds, the owner of this gun store should go to jail because some of the weapons he sold wound up in the hands of Mexican drug dealers -- even though the national data base approved the sale and he will be sued out of existence if he is deemed to be "profiling" -- refusing to sell guns to young Latinos, for instance.

1 posted on 03/02/2009 8:04:34 AM PST by Zakeet
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To: Zakeet
"And their firepower comes from the U.S."

Maybe Mexico should close the border southbound?

2 posted on 03/02/2009 8:07:02 AM PST by Paladin2 (No, pundits strongly believe that the proper solution is more dilution.)
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To: Zakeet

If Mexico would stop helping them get here illegally they could not buy the guns!


3 posted on 03/02/2009 8:08:23 AM PST by ontap (Just another backstabbing conservative)
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To: Paladin2

IMPOSSIBLE! Guns are illegal in Mexico....I HAVE SEEN THE SIGNS! “Guns and Ammo are Illegal in Mexico!”


4 posted on 03/02/2009 8:09:34 AM PST by DCBryan1 (Arm Pilots&Teachers. Build the Wall. Export Illegals. Profile Muslims. Execute child molesters RFN!)
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To: Zakeet

How about all the beheadings? I suppose Mexicans get their machete’s from the USA too?

Build the Fence!!!! Arm it. Then give the Mexican people the 2nd amendment so they can protect themselves.


5 posted on 03/02/2009 8:10:21 AM PST by AuntB (The right to vote in America: Blacks 1870; Women 1920; Native Americans 1925; Foreigners 2008)
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To: harpseal; TexasCowboy; nunya bidness; AAABEST; Travis McGee; Squantos; Shooter 2.5; wku man; SLB; ..
Typical lib approach to a "problem" -- don't punish the criminals; blame the tools.

Click the Gadsden flag for pro-gun resources!

6 posted on 03/02/2009 8:12:11 AM PST by Joe Brower (Sheep have three speeds: "graze", "stampede" and "cower".)
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To: Zakeet
Last Christmas Eve, salesmen at Cabela's Sporting Goods store in Phoenix were surprised when two Hispanic men bought 24,000 rounds of 5.7 caliber bullets -- the same caliber used in FN "cop killers."

Just to keep the record straight, the 5.7x28's that are listed as "cop killers" aren't available for sale to the general public. These 24,000 are not cop killer's.

7 posted on 03/02/2009 8:13:26 AM PST by umgud (I'm really happy I wasn't aborted)
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To: Zakeet

WTF’s in the bucket the cop/soldier is carrying? Are they going to fight crime with drywall mud?


8 posted on 03/02/2009 8:13:34 AM PST by CholeraJoe (Tagline removed under court order)
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To: Zakeet

If this weren’t a “War on FFL Holders”, they’d be going after the guys who bought the guns that ended up in Mexico.

He’s probably even got some of those “Don’t Buy For The Other Guy” signs with pictures of jail-cell doors, to discourage “straw purchasers” around the store.

Since they don’t seem to be going after “those guys”, this reverts back to “War on FFL Holders”.


9 posted on 03/02/2009 8:14:13 AM PST by DuncanWaring (The Lord uses the good ones; the bad ones use the Lord.)
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To: Zakeet

I read the “Story” and it is impossible to find what the man is actually accused of doing that was illegal.

There was a whole litany of shootouts in Mexico between narco trafficantes and Mexican LEO’s, but not a word about what the man did that was unsanctioned.

So basically the WSJ posted a anti Civil Rights propaganda piece and called it “news”.


10 posted on 03/02/2009 8:14:35 AM PST by padre35 (You shall not ignore the laws of God, the Market, the Jungle, and Reciprocity Rm10.10)
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To: Zakeet

Every gun that was picked in Mexico and that originated in the USA can be traced by serial number back to an American citizen’s driver’s license or SSN. THE BUYER WHO SOLD THE GUN TO THE NARCOTRAFFICANTES IS THE ONE WHO SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED IF ANYONE IS! If such a buyer is purchasing large numbers of arms for re-sale then he can be charged with firearms offenses.


11 posted on 03/02/2009 8:14:53 AM PST by darth
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To: Zakeet

Tyranny attacks us from all sides. Once the gun rights are gone, the other rights become “opinions” held by our leaders at their mercy.


12 posted on 03/02/2009 8:24:25 AM PST by Professor_Leonide (I said to the young man who showed me a photo, "Who can ever be sure what is behind a mask?")
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To: Paladin2

I suspect the bulk of their firepower gets there on container ships through cartel controlled mexican ports. However that does little to advance gun control in this country.


13 posted on 03/02/2009 8:30:18 AM PST by cripplecreek (The poor bastards have us surrounded.)
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To: Joe Brower

Be Ever Vigilant!


14 posted on 03/02/2009 8:37:15 AM PST by blackie (Be Well~Be Armed~Be Safe~Molon Labe!)
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To: umgud
Just to keep the record straight, the 5.7x28's that are listed as "cop killers" aren't available for sale to the general public. These 24,000 are not cop killer's.

That's true. It's interesting, though, that the new "must have" weapon of the Mexican drug gangs may be the P90. You know damned well that *those* aren't coming from the Estados Unidos.

15 posted on 03/02/2009 8:37:35 AM PST by Charles Martel ("Endeavor to persevere...")
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To: Zakeet

Stupid government officials, they are the ones who give the authorization to the ffl dealers. Blame them! Our gun rights are going to be challenged by gun grabbers at all costs. What they fail to realize is there are likely more of us then them. If gun owners stand as one, they lose.


16 posted on 03/02/2009 8:40:28 AM PST by JamesA (He who hesitates is lost.)
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To: umgud
Just to keep the record straight, the 5.7x28's that are listed as "cop killers" aren't available for sale to the general public. These 24,000 are not cop killer's.

The 5.7x28 ammo for sale in the U.S. is "sporting" ammo. It is either FMJ or hollow point with a plastic ballistic tip favored for small varmint hunting. The armor piercing variant of the ammo is not available for sale to the public. To make that claim is a lie.

17 posted on 03/02/2009 8:43:53 AM PST by Myrddin
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To: Zakeet

There was a gunshop in Westminister, California that was called Xcaliber guns. He closed up a few years back and I wonder if he moved to Arizona?


18 posted on 03/02/2009 8:45:03 AM PST by Parley Baer
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To: Charles Martel

the new “must have” weapon of the Mexican drug gangs may be the P90


Which, of course, is illegal for any US citizen to buy or possess. Only military and “law enforcement” may own them.


19 posted on 03/02/2009 8:46:53 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed
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To: Charles Martel
That's true. It's interesting, though, that the new "must have" weapon of the Mexican drug gangs may be the P90. You know damned well that *those* aren't coming from the Estados Unidos.

The variant for sale in U.S. gun shops is the PS90. It is a semi-auto, one pull/one shot semi-automatic. I've heard stories that the PS90 can be converted to full auto with a very trivial change. Frankly, I don't find it very attractive and it's too expensive to be of interest. The FiveSeven pistol is a nice firearm, but the cost of the ammo and difficulty reloading the bottle nose cartridges results in a firearm that is rarely fired.

20 posted on 03/02/2009 8:48:34 AM PST by Myrddin
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To: Charles Martel
the new "must have" weapon of the Mexican drug gangs may be the P90. You know damned well that *those* aren't coming from the Estados Unidos.


21 posted on 03/02/2009 8:54:02 AM PST by umgud (I'm really happy I wasn't aborted)
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To: Zakeet

Sounds like Mexico needs tougher gun laws./s


22 posted on 03/02/2009 9:01:47 AM PST by beltfed308 (Heller: The defining moment of our Republic)
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To: Zakeet
Contributing to the problem is the fact that Mexico's customs control is famously weak, and authorities rarely check inbound traffic from the U.S.

Well there you go. They won't protect their borders so Americans must sacrifice their rights.

23 posted on 03/02/2009 9:02:17 AM PST by TC Rider (The United States Constitution - 1791. All Rights Reserved.)
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To: Zakeet

So you can comply with EVERY SINGLE LAW and still be prosecuted?


24 posted on 03/02/2009 9:26:55 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (The problem with socialism is that you eventually run out of other people's money. Margret Thatcher)
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To: CholeraJoe

When his shift is over he’s going to sneak across the border and work for a contractor.


25 posted on 03/02/2009 9:31:55 AM PST by Slings and Arrows ("0bama talks, tanking stocks!"--WakeUpAndVote)
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To: Zakeet; All

“X-Caliber Guns LLC, is accused of knowingly selling hundreds of weapons, mostly AK-47’s”

Since when were “AK47’s” available en-masse to John Q. Public?

Don’t we just love this liberal propaganda from the supposed voice of the financial community.

CANCEL YOUR WALL STREET JOURNAL SUBSCRIPTIONS NOW!!!”

thaDeetz


26 posted on 03/02/2009 9:38:15 AM PST by ebiskit (South Park Republican ( I see Red People ))
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To: darth; All

“THE BUYER WHO SOLD THE GUN TO THE NARCOTRAFFICANTES IS THE ONE WHO SHOULD BE INVESTIGATED IF ANYONE IS!”

BINGO!

And if this isn’t being done, then why not?


27 posted on 03/02/2009 9:42:57 AM PST by Red in Blue PA (If guns cause crime, then all of mine are defective.)
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To: umgud
"These 24,000 are not cop killer's".

If I'm not mistaken, a .223 will penetrate a vest if aimed straight on...as will a shotgun slug.

Anyone know any different?

How long before shotgun slugs, .308 and 30.06 are outlawed?

28 posted on 03/02/2009 10:16:39 AM PST by Mariner
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To: Mariner

That is exactly the point of AG Eric Holder, Senators Kennedy, Feinstein, McCarthy etc. Any weapon that can penetrate a level IIA kevlar vest is a “cop killer” and so the ammo should be banned. Any deer hunting rifle round will penetrate a thin vest. So there you have it.


29 posted on 03/02/2009 12:13:10 PM PST by Sender (It's never too late to be who you could have been.)
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To: Myrddin
I've heard stories that the PS90 can be converted to full auto with a very trivial change.

Then you have been listening to liars and you are now spreading their lies. There is no truth to this anti-gun propaganda you are spewing here on this public discussion forum. If you had any shame you would report your post as an abuse and ask the moderator to remove both of our posts, assuming you aren't some gun banning liberal troll.

30 posted on 03/02/2009 1:00:59 PM PST by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: umgud
Just to keep the record straight, the 5.7x28's that are listed as "cop killers" aren't available for sale to the general public. These 24,000 are not cop killer's.

They are by the "new" definition, that being anything that can penetrate a standard, certified for pistol ammunition, vest. But then so is the ammo for my '40s vintage M1 Carbine.

They haven't put the "new definition" into the law, yet, but they are working on it.

31 posted on 03/02/2009 1:09:26 PM PST by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: Ronaldus Magnus
Then you have been listening to liars and you are now spreading their lies. There is no truth to this anti-gun propaganda you are spewing here on this public discussion forum. If you had any shame you would report your post as an abuse and ask the moderator to remove both of our posts, assuming you aren't some gun banning liberal troll.

That's a lot of spew from an uninformed person. I was shown exactly the necessary change to the stock PS90 to make it operate full auto. FN did a poor job on that part of the rifle. I won't buy one because the ATF could make the same simple change and indict me for possession of a full auto rifle without the appropriate approvals. They have stepped much further over the line when trying to hang honest gun owners. If you don't want to believe, that's fine. I refuse to purchase a PS90.

32 posted on 03/02/2009 1:35:14 PM PST by Myrddin
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To: Myrddin
That's a lot of spew from an uninformed person. I was shown exactly the necessary change to the stock PS90 to make it operate full auto.

If that were the case, then you have definitely outed yourself as the gun banning troll you are. Only an idiot braggart or a gun hater would post something that inflammatory on a public forum where democrats are known to lurk. You likely qualify for both titles.

FN did a poor job on that part of the rifle.

It's a closed bolt, blow back operated rifle with a small amount of barrel recoil. The experts at the FNHB and the BATFE both decided that it was not readily convertible to a fully automatic fire.

I won't buy one because the ATF could make the same simple change and indict me for possession of a full auto rifle without the appropriate approvals.

I'm sure that they appreciate your suggestion here on a public internet forum.

They have stepped much further over the line when trying to hang honest gun owners.

No doubt with the help and instigation of useful idiots like yourself.

If you don't want to believe, that's fine. I refuse to purchase a PS90.

Refusing to buy and publicly declaring that it "can be converted to full auto with a very trivial change" are two entirely different things. Again, if you had any even a shred of decency, you would report your post as an abuse and ask the moderator to remove all of our posts. It's too bad that you apparently don't.

33 posted on 03/02/2009 2:25:17 PM PST by Ronaldus Magnus
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To: cripplecreek
I suspect the bulk of their firepower gets there on container ships through cartel controlled mexican ports. However that does little to advance gun control in this country.

You beat me to it. I would be willing to bet that most of the AK-47's are coming into Mexico directly from China through Cartel controlled facilities. The AK has been produced by larger numbers than any firearm in history. The ChiCom's are the largest producers by far. This is a win-win for the ChiCom's. They can make money while de-stabilizing two countries at the same time.
34 posted on 03/02/2009 8:29:05 PM PST by wjcsux (White liberal elites are America's losers with money.)
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To: Beelzebubba

>>> Which [the P90], of course, is illegal for any US citizen to buy or possess. Only military and “law enforcement” may own them.

Where are you getting that? In certain states, maybe, but not by federal law. The feds will even OK your adding a full-auto happy button, as long as you jump through the paperwork hoops & pay the NFA fee.

I think that manufacturer’s pistol which uses the same ammo (whose model name I forget at the mo’) is no longer in production and likely banned from current import to the US, but not illegal to own.


35 posted on 03/03/2009 8:24:36 AM PST by Titan Magroyne ("Drill now drill hard drill often and give old Gaia a cigarette afterwards she deserves it." HerrBlu)
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To: Beelzebubba

Nevermind, sorry. I see others posted after, dunno if it’s my end or FR’s that I couldn’t get it to display replies to your post.


36 posted on 03/03/2009 8:27:40 AM PST by Titan Magroyne ("Drill now drill hard drill often and give old Gaia a cigarette afterwards she deserves it." HerrBlu)
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To: Titan Magroyne

>>> Which [the P90], of course, is illegal for any US citizen to buy or possess. Only military and “law enforcement” may own them.

Where are you getting that? In certain states, maybe, but not by federal law. The feds will even OK your adding a full-auto happy button, as long as you jump through the paperwork hoops & pay the NFA fee.

I think that manufacturer’s pistol which uses the same ammo (whose model name I forget at the mo’) is no longer in production and likely banned from current import to the US, but not illegal to own.


Sorry, but the only full auto arms we peons may own (at exorbitant prices) are the limited number that were already in existence and registered as of May 1986. Modern full auto are fully and completely banned.


37 posted on 03/03/2009 8:43:13 AM PST by Atlas Sneezed
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To: Beelzebubba

Hmmm, I was under the impression that NFA compliance allowed for the alteration of the trigger group/lower receiver to full auto, for those with the wherewithall to do so.

I can’t decide whether I like the P90. I handled one (semi-auto) at the last gunshow, was tempted, but had to get the top of my shopping list accomplished. It struck me that surely the ammo is expensive and sometimes a chore to find.


38 posted on 03/03/2009 10:37:56 AM PST by Titan Magroyne ("Drill now drill hard drill often and give old Gaia a cigarette afterwards she deserves it." HerrBlu)
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