Posted on 04/07/2009 12:07:33 PM PDT by trumandogz
Show me any evidence that these legal immigrants are conservative. Any at all. Again, we are talking such a tiny minority of the hispanics in this country. Tell me how we gain their vote.
Bush tried to win the hispanic vote the way the dems are winning it - with amnesty and all kinds of giveaways and he still got only 44%. What more to we promise them?
I don’t know about the immigrants,
but the country in general polls as (non-political) conservatives, ie, that’s how they live their lives, 2 to 1 vs liberals.
They just haven’t been educated correctly and believe socialism isn’t harmful to their lives.
>> last November Obama won precisely due to the brown vote which along with a monolithic black vote can ensure socialism forever baring a cataclysmic event.
Politics is not a racial math problem.
If you believe demographics are the only reason McCain lost, then there’s not much I can say. Perhaps they played a part, but I doubt heavily that they were a deciding factor (particularly outside the African American population). But, if you (or the GOP) reduce politics to a racial math problem, we will always lose.
McCain lost primarily because he lacked vision, lacked principles, and thus failed to explain conservatism to the voters. He also lost because Bush was unpopular, and two-term Presidency is rarely good for the Party in the following election. He lost because Obama falsely portrayed himself as a fiscal conservative (or at least on par with McCain in that regard).
>> We argued all this before you got here over the illegal invasion ...
Before I got where? I am on your side on the “illegal invasion”. Slam the doors shut and arrest the criminals. However, I do not, and will not, equate illegal immigrants with ALL immigrants. I have no problem whatsoever with people who follow the rules. I refuse to single honest people out for disdain based solely on their race.
>> I hope you’re happy with all of it though. We tried to warn you.
Though I disagree with your diagnosis, I am no more happy with this state of affairs than you are. And I’ll warn you — if you (or the GOP) continue to concede non-whites to the Democrats, we will have a rough go. They’re just people, living life like you and I ... they can be convinced.
Conservatism is an inherently reasoned philosophy, and we must do a better job of conveying our principles to whites and non-whites alike. It may take another Reagan to do so, but it is possible ... and it may be our last best hope.
SnakeDoc
>> Show me any evidence that these legal immigrants are conservative. Any at all. [...] Tell me how we gain their vote.
People aren’t born conservative or liberal, and I don’t believe that race is the only controlling factor here. We gain their vote the same way we would gain anyone else’s — we show them that conservatism is what made this country great in the first place, it is the reason that we were their destination. We show them that freedom is preferable to tyranny, that conservatism is the only way to preserve the American Dream that they came here to fulfill.
>> Bush tried to win the hispanic vote the way the dems are winning it - with amnesty and all kinds of giveaways and he still got only 44%. What more to we promise them?
We can’t win it “the way Dems are winning it”. They’ll always one-up us. We have to win it based on OUR OWN principles — freedom, autonomy, the American Dream.
SnakeDoc
The GOP can gain traction with Hispanica via social issues. However, that traction will be lost if the GOP is seen as the “white” party.
like I said...kumbaya logic with no facts presented.
actually it’s all about race for you not me, in your case it’s the denial of the obvious fact race plays in how folks vote, your wishful thinking notwithstanding.
likewise like typical RINO moderate you put words in my mouth I never uttered:
I never said race voting blocs were the ONLY reason McCain lost.
You said that and then expounded on other reasons he lost....all of which are quite valid but again 55% of whites voted for him and he lost...the first time in history a candidate with that level of white support lost.
a bad omen considering how minorities vote
btw...ou can see this happening all over the white Christian world where minorities and Muslims are eroding once predominate white influence on culture and voting habits.
it’s not pretty there either.
at some point soon Europe will be Islamic at least as plurality
and here the brown wave will ensure Dem control forever....liek I said baring cataclysm
if you have any proof to bolster your noble claim that the opposite is true then by all means submit it, otherwise I think most of us on this forum understand your position and it’s inherent foolhardiness
that is unless you are like a number of folks here and are yourself a minority and like this getback time regardless of how it drives our nation ever further leftward.
I find it amusing that you claim race is not a factor in one paragraph and then in the next paragraph claim the black vote is indeed that. Well I got news for you so is the latino vote more or less about like the Jewish vote...(except the Jewish vote in 1980 after Carter’s Sadat foolishness went for Magnus)
regards
I have said my peace. If you want to pretend that we’re vanquished, and wallow in self-pity, help yourself. You’ve defeated yourself.
I am simply not willing to surrender voters simply because they are “brown” (as you say) — and the fact that I believe such voters can be convinced does not make me moderate, nor a “RINO”.
You categorize people into your little pidgeon-holes, and then run about screaming “There are too many brown people! The country is doomed.” And then you’ve got the audacity to say that I am fixated on race. Utter nonsense.
Despair is not conservative. It is pathetic.
SnakeDoc
These are the people who are becoming naturalized citizens. They would have to be legal to become citizens. These people went through the long and difficult process, paid all sorts of fees, did the things they were supposed to do, were found to be of good moral character, etc. It took them many years to reach the point that they were allowed to take the oath of citizenship.
Like I have said our entire discourse. You only offer politically correct wishful thinking however noble.
I offer facts and historical empirical evidence.
When you figure out how to do what Mccain bent over backwards and tried to do which is get latinos aside from the more European ones like Cubans and professional class/gentried Central and South Americans to vote conservative let me know.
Till then it’s just a feel good canard. McCain kissed their butts bigtime and they threw him under the bus almost 5-1 just like they always have since they got here in any numbers 20 years ago.
Your talk is like Obama, it sounds all high and mighty but it’s a proven failure.
btw...lookie here...wonder why Obama like you is so eager to legalize the illegals...could it be, that like me (unlike snake doctor) that he knows they will vote for him and his party for the foreseeable future...and doom us to socialism...unless we can just talk them all in to being conservatives just in the nick of time...lol
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2225313/posts
You keep asking what we need to give Hispanics to win their vote. Allow me to answer that for you. What we need to give them is respect. They vote for Democrats because Democrats tend to welcome them with open arms. Republicans say nice things to them at election time, some do anyway, but mostly what they hear from Republicans is that they are the enemy. They are sub humans that are here to to suck the system dry. They're flawed human beings with a flawed culture. There is so much hatred directed towards these people and it comes mostly from Republicans.
I deal with Hispanics all the time. My law partner does nothing but immigration. I actually handle a fair amount of immigration cases myself. I deal with people from all over the world, including Hispanics. For the most part these are very hard working family oriented people. Most are very religious, either Catholic or evangelical Christians. They are against things like gay marriage and abortion. They are very much socially conservative. Only a small percentage of them take anything from the government. They don't want handouts. All they really want is respect, and they don't feel like they get that from Republicans. They know how Republicans malign them. They hear the kind of hateful crap you see here on Freerepublic everyday. It's obvious to them which side welcomes them and which side hates them.
I honestly believe that if we discouraged the hateful rhetoric, if we treat these people with respect, we could eventually win an awful lot of them over. They aren't Democrats because they are liberals. They're Democrats because they feel like Republicans don't like them and don't care about them.
We had better figure this out, or we are screwed. The Hispanic population is growing by leaps and bounds every year. I'm in a small town and more than a hundred people swear in as citizens here every single month, and more than half of these new voters in my area are Hispanics. We're pretty solidly Republican in my area but that will change unless we do a better job of showing these people that we respect them and we appreciate them and we want them on our team.
So, while you may see some that are "for the most part these are very hard working family oriented people" I didn't. (you sure got the line down pat) All the men had wives in some other country and were shacking up here.
I liked some of them personally but as whole they are not the people you claim they are.
The ones who become citizens are the ones you would hear referring to this as their country. I don’t know how you know so much about what these people you worked with believed or how they felt about this country if they didn’t speak English. Those becoming citizens have to learn English, except in certain limited circumstances where they can get a waiver. And one of the questions they are asked when they are applying to become citizens is whether they would take up arms for the United States if they are called upon to do so. It sounds to me like you were dealing with Hispanic men who came here illegally just to make just here to make money.
Believe what you want believe. I’m just pointing out the fact that as long as there is all this hatred and disrespect for these people coming from Republicans, they’re going to gravitate toward the Democrats.
This is how Mexico plans to take back the southwest. Wake up, America!
I never said if they were citizens or not. I don't know.
As for learning English I would ask them how long they'd been here and some would answer in years yet could barely speak English (or, would pretend not to).
In my experience very few wanted to become Americans. They almost always talked about going back to Ecuador or Columbia AFTER they made some money.
Believe what you want believe. I’m just pointing out the fact that as long as there is all this hatred and disrespect for these people coming from Republicans, they’re going to gravitate toward the Democrats.
It has very little to do with beliefs but rather personal experience.
BTW, I like how you slip that old straw man of "hate" in. Very like a liberal.
Also, I have to remember, you make money off of these people. Of course, you'll see the better ones. Those that WANT to be here are welcome. Very few of the ones that I met WANT to be here. They are here to make some money and go back.
There is no such thing as a FATHERLESS CHILD, unless I missed something. rofl
As for the “straw man of hate,” there is nothing straw man like about. There is a lot of hatred directed toward Hispanics in this country today, and it is coming mostly from Republicans. Hispanics are very cognizant about the way they are portrayed. They pay attention to what people are saying about them and who is saying it. Hopefully not many are reading these forums here much, because you really do see a lot of anger and yes, hatred, directed towards Hispanics right here on Freerepublic. Not everybody here does it, and people have some real legitimate complaints about illegal aliens here. Legitimate complaints are one thing, but a lot of people paint all Hispanics with the same brush. They say just horrible things about the people and their cultural heritage. It's over-the-top and uncalled for and just the sort of thing driving these voters away from the Republican party. I deal a lot with Hispanic people and sometimes I talk to them about politics and I'm just pointing out concerns they've shared with me. It appears to most of them it seems that Republicans tend to be anti-Hispanic. They agree with Republicans on many issues. On average they are more socially conservative than most people. In many ways the Republican party is a better fit for them, but they go for Democrats because they think Democrats will stand up for their interests a lot more than Republicans.
This isn't all just a reaction to prejudice by large numbers of Republicans. Another problem is that these Hispanics are conditioned to vote for Democrats because Democrats are perceived as the party that cares more about the poor working class. Most Hispanics that come here are low income working class types. They vote for Democrats because they think they are supposed to vote for Democrats, not so much unlike Southerners who used to vote for Democrats but now have switched over to the Republican party.
I think we have to look at the long term. I mentioned in a previous post that in my small town more than a 100 people swear in as citizens every month and most are Hispanic. For every one that swears in there are several who were born here to immigrant parents who reach the age of majority and are now able vote. If almost all of them vote Democrat, we're in trouble in “red” areas with growing Hispanic populations. It is true that Texas could turn into a blue state, as could many other states in the South that are currently red.
I live in the South. People down here did not used to vote for Republicans, but Republicans were able to change the tide and bring in enough people who once thought they were supposed to vote for Democrats. A lot of blue states were turned into red states. I believe that we can turn the tide with Hispanic voters, and we should darned sure try to do that. It won't happen overnight, but if it doesn't happen the Republican party is in serious trouble. We can do it because these people are a better fit with the Republican party. They just haven't realized that yet. We need to help them come to that realization, but we're never going to be able to do that as long as they perceive Republicans to be the party full of people that hate them.
I won't belabor this point anymore. I hope you can understand what I am trying to say and can see that there is some merit to it.
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