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To: bushwon

Not sure where you got your info. The top tax rate in Germany is 43%. The corporate rate is nomially 30%, but just try and find a corproation that actually pays that much.

The German state is a bit larger as a percentage of GDP than the US, but for that the social safety net is quite a bit larger. In my opinon too large and I think the system could take a lot of advice from the American system.

But, the healthcare is superior in Germany not just in terms of bang for the buck, but also in the security that losing one’s job does not cause a loss of coverage.

One more thing I should mention is that Germany does have extra money to pay for social programs because it relies on the US for defense. This is mentioned too infrequently and often forgotten that the world is the way it is (generally a decent place) because the US is the way it is.

By the way, I have lived 22 years in the US.


112 posted on 06/11/2009 11:50:52 PM PDT by Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit (I am not surprised by what Obama is and to more than a little extent we do have Bush to blame.)
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To: Einigkeit_Recht_Freiheit; All

“One more thing I should mention is that Germany does have extra money to pay for social programs because it relies on the US for defense. This is mentioned too infrequently and often forgotten that the world is the way it is (generally a decent place) because the US is the way it is.”

Interesting observation. Glad that some outside the US recognize that there is and has been good that is done by the US—our new President spends quite a bit of his his time flying around the world apologizing for his perception of our past misdeeds. I fear that The US is not going to be “the way it is” for much longer. It is changing; many of us are very concerned. Words like financial disaster are being used to describe this new health care initiative. Many feel we are going in the opposite direction (central planning) to where we need to to improve our economy.

Not that there are not improvements that can be made to our health care system—there are, but they could be addressed incrementally and with private choice and market-based solutions in a capitalist economy. That is not what is happening here.

I got my information on life expectancy and taxes of various countries from Wikipedia—they have a chart comparing taxes of countries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world

Sorry, but with the exception of Belgium, Germany had the highest tax rates as of 2005. Now perhaps your conservative new Chancellor has reduced taxes by 20%, but that is what the chart says. Maybe it is wrong....

If you look at the US-administration of our Medicaid and Medicare systems as well as some of our state-run health care programs, you will find that these programs (which could be considered test pilot programs for a national program) are not effective—increasingly, physicians will not even participate in Medicaid/Medicare without supplemental fees thereby actually reducing access. These programs actually drive up costs because they encourage people to go to the ER for minor problems—because the people don’t pay—government does so cost does not matter....

California, known for its medical and social benefits is literally bankrupt—truly—in 50 days, they will be in default. They covered all kinds of people for all kinds of services, but now the bill is coming due ^ they can’t pay. Many fear that is what will happen in our country’s future.

You really can’t look at the new oboma-lead universal health care initiative in a vacuum tho. Our economy is now 11 Trillion in debt due to the spending of our Democratic congress and new president’s agenda. We have or will have quadrupled both the debt and the deficit. Some say estimates are higher and now oboma is saying he wants his office to make the health care budget projections as opposed to our usual Congressional Budget office. Some are saying that is likely in order to understate the true expenses that will be incurred for us to move to a socialized system. BTW, if you lived in US for 22 years, you know that government pretty much ALWAYS underestimates costs.

In addition to the costs concern, there is the larger social liberty concern. Many here feel that the reason oboma wants to take over our private health care system is not to improve health care—as I said before, more folks will get less—at least that is what will happen here in US. But many feel the goal isn’t to improve health care—it is to expand socialism via the safety net which interestingly you believe should be reduced in Germany to be more like what we have. oboma leans socialist (at best) and wants to transfer decision making from private sector and wealth and choices from those who carry the load, pay taxes, and have choices to the 43% of Americans who pay no income tax and power/decision making to the government.

When you look at ALL that is happening in America regarding the takeover of private industries by our government due to all the “crises” (banking, insurance, auto manufacturing and dealerships) it becomes more clear that there may not be so many “crises” and there is an larger agenda—to move the US towards socialism by creating a large lower class dependent on the government for most goods and services that will pay most of their income to the government via taxes.

This is to be done by eliminating the middle & upper middle class-leaving the large lower class and a type of “ruling class” of wealthy employed in government and government related/subsidized sectors. If you look at statistics, all sectors of our economy have job reductions EXCEPT for government which is increasing hiring. No one here talks about cutting budgets—just increasing debt or taxes.

Sorry, but many of us truly do not believe that the goal is to improve health care.

You are in Germany; enjoy your great health care. I am happy you live where you are pleased. I wish I could be happy, but right now, I am very worried for my children’s future.


113 posted on 06/12/2009 6:58:30 PM PDT by Freedom56v2 ("If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait till it is free! "~ PJ O'Rourke)
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