Posted on 06/18/2009 8:27:56 AM PDT by GodGunsGuts
Not that old canard, again.
His plan does not involve punishing folks for breaking rules they did not know about. Never did. Never will.
Which God?
That's only your opinion. I've been told on FR several times that it's no big deal that Hindus go to hell.
Theists and atheists both disagree with the agnostic that God is unknowable, they just have different conclusions on the answer.
What old canard? I thought the central message was that mankind is fallen, and everyone is damned for all eternity UNLESS they accept Salvation before dying. Not true?
Matt.25 [46] And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.
Rev.21 [8] But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
I just wouldn’t want to go up against islam with a nation of atheists and secularists. We’d loose.
I don't think bravery is reliant on your theistic stance. Otherwise, Obama and Carter would be heroes.
Not true.
Not everybody has had a chance to hear God's word or know of His Savior before their physical death. They are not condemned to the lake of fire for that ignorance.
Your two quotes do not describe people who've never heard of Christ receiving final judgment for not accepting Him while in the flesh.
The Revelation quote is talking about the actual 'second death' which comes at the end of the millennium. At that point Christ will have been here a thousand years and will be quite well known by all. Those condemned at the end of that period will not be innocent by ignorance.
The Matthew quote is the end of a parable the Lord was relaying regarding the millennium period. Christ is telling the parable about the separation of the sheep from the goats. At this point in Matthew He had just got done teaching His followers about how to recognize when the end times are near and how believers are to prepare for it. After detailing some of those signs and stating how the unbelievers will not even notice what's going on (thus His reference to the days of Noah when corrupt folks went on corrupting themselves until the shock of reality drowned them) He then taught a series of parables about what SHOULD happen while He is away (now) and what WILL happen when He returns.
First He mentions the lazy, drunken guy left in charge who thinks to himself "ah, the Master won't be back soon" and goes about his sinful ways. And He compares that bum to the faithful and wise fellow who tends to his master house and provides "meat in due season" to those entrusted to him. Of course, the wise fellow was richly rewarded and the lazy bum who did not watch and did not provide the "meat" ends up doing the proverbial "weeping and gnashing of teeth" when the Master returns to "cut him asunder".
Next is the parable of the ten virgins which is also about preparation, watching and waiting. The five wise virgins fully prepared and then waited. The foolish five did not prepare. When the bridegroom showed up suddenly He (Christ) gives the foolish five the old "I know you not" routine and locks them out of the wedding celebration.
Then He teaches the parable of the servants (today's Christians) which the Master (Christ) leaves in charge while He's away and gives each a certain amount of "talents". The literal meaning of talents in the parable is bars of gold while the spiritual meaning is gifts He gives to Christians including knowledge of His word, ability to teach, etc. Thus our modern use of talents to mean abilities not acquired by ones own doing as opposed to simple skills achieved via practice. Some of the servants make good use of their various amounts of talents and are profitable to the Master. But the "wicked and slothful" servant just hid his talent while the Master was away to nobody's profit. That guy's punishment was that the Lord takes away his one measly talent and gives it to the guy who already has the most talents - kinda like Obamanomics in reverse. And, of course, the unprofitable guy is cast into "outer darkness" where there is more "weeping and gnashing of teeth".
All these teachings and parables were concerning believers.
Then, finally He gets to the parable of the sheep and the goats from which you pulled your quote. This parable concerns what will happen to the unsaved non-believers when He gets back. They (if you're reading the KJV it will say "nations", but the greek is masculine rather than neuter which means it should be interpreted as meaning individual people from the nations) will be gathered together before Christ (on His throne) and then separated good from bad. The bad are called "goats" and are put on the left while the good are called "sheep" and put on the right since, in the bible, right is always better than left - hey, just like American politics! Sheep are used for the good because their instinct is to be mild-mannered and to follow, goats are used for the bad because their instinct is to be stubborn, independent and often troublesome (plus, they stink which I know because some are outside my window as I type).
Here's the important part:
The basis on which He decides who goes with the sheep on the right and who goes with the goats on the left is the way that each had treated "My brethen" (Christians) while He was away.
True enough. I recognize that there are multiple religions that claim to be honoring the God of Abraham. And, just we Christians alone sport uncounted denominations within our "religion" which have conflicting views on such matters.
For what it's worth to you, I'm not a member of any denomination myself. I was born and raised Catholic, but have been studying and believing independently for the past few decades so I'm not subject to any of the "traditions of men" which pass as doctrine today.
By my reading, there is no "hell" as hollywood might depict it. There will be a lake of fire which is used to destroy the devil, his fallen angels and those of us who've not accepted Christ by then - either now or during the millennium period at which point it will not be possible to be ignorant of Christ's message.
Does he fall into the fiery lake while Jimmy Carter goes to heaven.
“On the contrary, theists can produce credible evidence for God’s existence.”
Like what? Ex nihilo nihil fit? The laws of nature? The universe’s inherent beauty? That’s only evidence of God if you’re already looking for God.
“Knowing God” - having a personal relationship w/God is first and foremost.
Good question. Though I would not assume that they all "surely heard the Gospels".
God loves His chosen people despite the fact that, like our own children, they've misbehaved and disrespected Him time and again. I don't want to get into the business of judging others which can be a grave sin itself. And nobody has stood their final judgment yet so I'm not going start telling God how to vote.
What I do know is that we Christians are considered to be "grafted" onto the vine as brethren with the Jews. They have had a very a special role in His plans. And we Christians have a very special role. They might still be waiting for a more David-like messiah. But I'm assuming by the end of the millennium period, that they will accept, as Paul tried to explain to their ancestors, that their own scripture predicts the same Christ Who will be reigning at that time.
People going to their grave unsaved is nothing new. People being saved before their physical death are the exception and will be treated somewhat differently because they are not subject to the 'second death' where actual souls of the hard-core, rebels are destroyed in the lake of fire.
Nevadan: Probably the Deity you least want to believe exists. I could be wrong though.
Nevadan: So, if you aren't looking for something, then it doesn't exist??
Judgment still awaits events and decisions not necessarily factored by some. And I am not the judge.
But it's good to see some folks still use old Ben Franklin for this question. Usually, it's Thomas Jefferson.
Loki? I hate that guy!
Communication (prayer), study of His written word and acceptance of His living word (Christ) are all important parts of that relationship. Praying to God, in Christ's name, and asking for understanding of His word and faith in His plan as you study it will keep that relationship fresh.
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