ElectricStrawberry wrote: A belief in God is not necessary to have purpose in life, a system of ethics, love, or logical thought.....and a belief IN God does not necessarily lead to a “just, caring, and secure society”. Pure nonsense dressed up as “logical thought” to appeal to those with Faith so they can justify calling atheists unethical, loveless, purposeless, unjust, uncaring, insecure, etc etc etc.....”atheism is a religion” is equally nonsensical. Me going about my life without a belief in God is in no way a “religion.”
Nevadan: You are absolutely correct in saying that belief in God is not necessary to have a personal morality, a personal view on the purpose of life, experiencing and giving love, bravery, courage, and on and on.
The problem for atheists, in my opinion, is that while it is true that belief in God is unnecessary for “a” morality, “a” purpose, etc. - it is equally true that the atheist has no foundation upon which to judge right from wrong. Why? Because the atheist has reduced such questions to mere “preferences”. Questions such as whether or not to steal, lie, cheat, murder, etc. are placed on the same level as preferences for which flavor of ice cream one prefers. This is because the atheist has no transcendant moral foundation (other than their own personal beliefs) upon which to judge right from wrong.
In fact, if atheism is true, and there is no God, then questions of right from wrong would be nonsenical. Such questions should have no meaning. If one doesn’t know what the color “blue” is, how can one identify it when he sees it? He can’t. Atheism provides no transcendant, moral foundation upon which to identify “right” from “wrong”. The atheist can come up with their own personal “view” of what right and wrong is - but, this would not necessarily have any meaning or moral compunction upon anyone else - unless they just happen to agree.
In other words, it is nice when atheists want to be “moral” and mirror the moral convictions of their society - even live “superior” moral lives as compared to others, but they have no particular philosophical compunction to do so. They can create their own “personal philosophy” that they live by, but again, it is only “their” belief.
Atheism can “allow” for personal morality, a personal view of the “purpose of life”, and, it can also allow for “no morality” and no purpose in life. It can allow for a completely amoral, narcissitic view of life and morality without any violation of atheism. This is because atheism, by logical extention of the denial of God (and therefore the denial of transcendant moral absolutes) has no transcendant moral standard upon which to declare the acts of others as either right or wrong - only personal conviction and preferences. Atheism, taken to its logical end, removes the possibility of moral absolutes that all must/should adhere to.
The fact that most people, even atheists, live as though they do know what murder is, what stealing is, what lying is, what “unfair” is, demonstrates (for me at least) one of the compelling evidences for the existence of God.
This does not “prove” the existence of God, but I do believe it is one of the compelling evidences for God.
Which God?
Pure nonsense....heard it all before from superior Christians and it's always been nonsense. My "foundation" for knowing right-wrong was in my rearing...what I've been taught from my older generations. I don't need a book to tell me that something is right or wrong....it's called a learned behavior...I was taught right from wrong when I didn't know any better with punishment for doing wrong and reward for doing right. I was taught to respect other people and their property as "not mine" and that if I take what is "not mine", there are consequences. I don't need to believe in a god or have a book to tell me not to steal that which is not mine. As I got older, I was able to think about it more as a "would I want to be treated that way" sort of "do unto others" philosophy. You could say that my morals are pseudo-Christian morals passed on by a Christian society through my non-Christian family. You could also say that I behave more in accordance with Christian morals than a helluva lot of God-believing Christians out there.
Because the atheist has reduced such questions to mere “preferences”. Questions such as whether or not to steal, lie, cheat, murder, etc. are placed on the same level as preferences for which flavor of ice cream one prefers. This is because the atheist has no transcendant moral foundation (other than their own personal beliefs) upon which to judge right from wrong.
Just....wow....how superior you must be. My decision not to steal everthing I see or kill everyone I see is even with my chocolate-dipped waffle cone of cookie-dough ice cream last night? So, at any time I could just as easily decide to steal everything and kill everyone on a whim based on how I feel today, right? People better watch what they say or I might just make a simple ice-cream flavor decision to put a round in their head? If it's sucha baseless decision to make.....it must be some freakin' miracle that I haven't killed anyone yet.......that once in a while I don't just look around to see who's watching and then steal something. Decades of SOMEHOW making the right decision to not steal or murder anyone at all times.
In fact, if atheism is true, and there is no God, then questions of right from wrong would be nonsenical.
I would never claim atheism to be true or that there is no god, God, or gods.....but people in a civil society can have a learned basis of property ownership and life-value without believing in a god or reading it in a book and living by it. One can also believe in a god and be a complete dilhole to his neighbor.
If one doesn’t know what the color “blue” is, how can one identify it when he sees it?
Ummm....I don't know......you LEARN what "blue" is by someone pointing to blue and telling you it's "blue".....just as you learn what "right" is...what "wrong" is....for the society and time you're living in. AND you learn the consequences of doing right/wrong.....and the ones for doing wrong suck.
I presume you're only speaking of "theism" as a belief in YOUR God anyway. What if I'm a theist, but believe in a different god....or gods....and read a different book? The Qu'ran has a big foundation of guiding moralistic principles too...complete with a belief in a god and divine punishments and rewards for misbehaving.