Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Speculators leave oil market as regulator mulls crackdown
Market Watch ^ | 7/13/09

Posted on 07/13/2009 1:31:38 PM PDT by FromLori

click here to read article


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-104 next last
To: domenad
Correlation? Absolute rubbish. For example, consider one of the greatest crashes in futures mkt history: Dec 98 Lean Hogs.

As hog prices collapsed (cash got down to NINE cents/lb at one point), the open interest kept going straight up in Dec, then shifted to Feb and April.

I have the hard figures in hand, and you can get them too, at cftc.gov. Moreover, this is not the only such example of specs hitting the downside of a mkt viciously; examples are to be had in the crude and products mkts, also. Your generalisation is just silly, and your ''correlation'' ... well, 'laughable' comes to mind.

41 posted on 07/13/2009 2:06:58 PM PDT by SAJ
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 20 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs
Is this good?

Well.... probably. The hedge fund positions in energy were/are motivated by the same sorts of considerations that drove the mortgage derivative market.

Speculation isn't bad per se, until it becomes divorced from the realities of the market in which the commodity being traded. Once that happens, the price of the commodity can do very strange things for reasons that have nothing to do with the actual supply/demand balance for the commodity itself.

There's some evidence that the price of oil was "artificially" high the last couple of years due to hedge funds trying to use an energy position to cover their losses in the mortgage market and elsewhere.

42 posted on 07/13/2009 2:07:22 PM PDT by r9etb
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: Fee

Market was design for users of oil to lock in prices, not non users to use it as a casino to distort the swings to the point that they cause recessions and booms.


Market theory says that hedging and speculating are two sides of the same coin. One man’s hedge is another man’s roll of the dice. Market distortions only occur if an individual player or group of players gets big enough to move or distort the market. That’s the theory anyway.


43 posted on 07/13/2009 2:07:39 PM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Tublecane

Of course you’re not going to have stability, but if we’re going to have instability, I say let it be because of real shifts in demand, NOT PERCEIVED SHIFTS. Speculators create artificial shifts in the demand curve (you got me back on theory, hope you’re happy) in an attempt to anticipate a real shift. This is a recipe for a mess - they will either make an error (anticipating a rightward shift when there is a leftward shift) or cause a rightward shift larger than real demand merits, all in the name of lining their pockets. They produce nothing via all this activity, they only flip bits in a bank account’s electronic register. You, I, and everyone else in America pay for this activity, to our detriment. Let the market work by responding to real demand.


44 posted on 07/13/2009 2:10:12 PM PDT by domenad (In all things, in all ways, at all times, let honor guide me.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: sickoflibs
No.

It is a reflection of the mistrust people with money have of Hussein. What will he do next? Despite the clear language of our Constitution, ex-post facto laws are common. There is legitimate concern that what an investor does today will be ruled illegal or will be heavily taxed long after the capital was invested.

FDR made the same mistake in 1937. He caused a depression within The Great Depression.

45 posted on 07/13/2009 2:10:33 PM PDT by Jacquerie (That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: domenad

Without oil speculators buying contracts, there will be a shortage of oil. The price may drop, but it may not be available. At prices too low, there is no incentive to produce or distribute.


46 posted on 07/13/2009 2:14:08 PM PDT by Exton1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: FromLori

The open interest in futures has little to do with the stockpiles of the commodity.


47 posted on 07/13/2009 2:15:40 PM PDT by Jacquerie (That to secure these Rights, Governments are instituted among Men.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: domenad

“I say let it be because of real shifts in demand, NOT PERCEIVED SHIFTS”

But a shift in perceived demand IS a shift in real demand. Real speculative demand. Hardly matters to me that they’re moving pieces of digital information from place to place, or however it is people characterize it. The same rules apply as in all other markets.

Can’t imagine an economy in which all prices were based on the demand for people to use whatever it is they’re buying immediately. There has to be some place for people who buy in order to turn a profit. There’s a self-regulating mechanism to the process. When speculators make an error, they lose money. That’s the best motivator there is not to make errors.

As for not being productive, there are efficiency concerns. Hedging producers’ risks. Stimulating future production. And probably a hundred other things.


48 posted on 07/13/2009 2:17:19 PM PDT by Tublecane
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: FromLori
A street walker has more ethics than a speculator, and a hedge fund manager and credit default gambler combined. And is a 100% more legal business.
49 posted on 07/13/2009 2:20:59 PM PDT by org.whodat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: colorado tanker
So-called "speculators" provide the equity that keeps many futures markets efficient. If it weren't for "speculators" it wouldn't be so easy for farmers or ranchers to hedge against price fluctuations or to lock in a price they like.

Pure 1000% bullshit!!!

50 posted on 07/13/2009 2:23:19 PM PDT by org.whodat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: Exton1

ROFLOL


51 posted on 07/13/2009 2:26:36 PM PDT by org.whodat
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: domenad

If you are economics experts you should know that speculators can make just as much money in a falling market as a rising market. Why would speculation drive it only up?


52 posted on 07/13/2009 2:31:23 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 3 | View Replies]

To: Fee

Free markets are instituted to FIND a price. You need speculators to do that efficiently.


53 posted on 07/13/2009 2:32:42 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Exton1

Thank you. So few understand markets.


54 posted on 07/13/2009 2:33:13 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 46 | View Replies]

To: domenad
They produce nothing via all this activity, they only flip bits in a bank account’s electronic register. You, I, and everyone else in America pay for this activity, to our detriment.

How does Southwest Airlines make you and "everyone else in America pay" when they try to hedge their future fuel costs?

55 posted on 07/13/2009 2:34:09 PM PDT by Toddsterpatriot (Math is hard. Harder if you're stupid.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 44 | View Replies]

To: 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten

Of course there is not a completely free market in oil. Corrupt governments and a suppliers cartel really is messing thing up. Don’t blame the “speculators”, blame these evil governments.


56 posted on 07/13/2009 2:38:15 PM PDT by DManA
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 43 | View Replies]

To: Buckeye McFrog
Actually one of the most beautiful beaches I’ve ever been to is just outside of Yankeetown. It is in the looming shadow of a nuclear power plant. Wonderful place and I’d go back again in a heartbeat.

Do you mean Fort Island Beach on Crystal Bay on 44 off of Suncoast Blvd, or somewhere along Powerline Road, OR across from Chambers Key (which isn't really on the Gulf)?

57 posted on 07/13/2009 2:43:48 PM PDT by jeffc (They're coming to take me away! Ha-ha, hey-hey, ho-ho!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: DManA

I would agree with that statement. Instead of blaming the corrupt govts, what we have instead is the corrupt govts displacing the blame on the “speculators”.

I’m sure there have been distortions due to speculation but I tend to think that any cure is likely worse than the original disease.


58 posted on 07/13/2009 2:49:44 PM PDT by 2 Kool 2 Be 4-Gotten
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 56 | View Replies]

To: org.whodat; colorado tanker
Pure 1000% bullshit!!!

Based on what?

Your ignorance of commodity markets?

59 posted on 07/13/2009 2:51:05 PM PDT by okie01 (THE MAINSTREAM MEDIA: Ignorance on Parade)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 50 | View Replies]

To: agere_contra
The producers depend on the speculators to make those future purchases of oil that is still in the ground. If there isn't a certain buyer, the oil will stay in the ground. We'll have shortages and rising prices.
60 posted on 07/13/2009 2:52:09 PM PDT by Myrddin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-2021-4041-6061-80 ... 101-104 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson