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To: FromLori; All
Right now the 20 year old son of a friend is all over my FaceBook page challenging me on the NoBama Healthcare Plan. I gave him 8 reasons that show it's wrong - he had "comebacks" for them all: My statements are in bold - his aren't

1. It will cost too much, a lot more than the projected costs offered by government bureaucratic flunkies.
Over 60% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills.

2. Health care will be rationed.
Rationed > none, which many people can't afford....

3. No incentives for doctors of all kinds to become doctors or to stay in the medical profession because salaries will be capped.<
Doctors actually care about helping people, not everyone is money hungry.

4. Enormous taxes for everybody in order to pay for universal health care.
Refer to point 1.

5. Patients will wait months and years for care. This will especially hurt the elderly the most. The elderly will die waiting for care.
This already happens, plus people will be welcome at all hospitals instead of those just approved by their health insurance.

6. No guarantee illegal aliens will not be recipients of health care that American taxpayers (you and me) will pay through the nose for.
For the better of mankind. Funny how you preach peace and humanity yet you feel it is alright to deny someone good health. I think you need to re-think your morals.

7. Government bureaucrats will determine who will receive care and who won't.
Won't everyone receive care, how is it that your worried that illegal aliens will get it but you won't?... 8. Health care will no longer be determined by doctors and their patients but be run by a nameless faceless government bureaucracy.
You act like medicare or medicaid doesn't have horrible issues as is.

If your so worried about the costs of such things, why don't we start taxing churches, that should bring in some $100 billion+

159 posted on 07/21/2009 1:39:17 PM PDT by ninergold3 ("Has it ever occurred to you that nothing occurs to God?" -Mark Lowry)
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To: ninergold3
1. It will cost too much, a lot more than the projected costs offered by government bureaucratic flunkies. Over 60% of bankruptcies are due to medical bills.

The implication is that health care would stop the person from going bankrupt. It might delay the bankruptcy but not stop it. The biggest effect of health issues is a decrease in income which leads to the inability to keep prior commitments.

2. Health care will be rationed. Rationed > none, which many people can't afford....

The implication is that those without insurance have no health care. This is a false premise. Those without insurance receive health care for free. However, those without health care have their services rationed compared to those without. If for example, 15% of the population was without insurance, then 15% are being rationed. If this plan passes, in a short time, 100% of the people's health care will be rationed.

3. No incentives for doctors of all kinds to become doctors or to stay in the medical profession because salaries will be capped.< Doctors actually care about helping people, not everyone is money hungry.

The implication is that there are plenty of talented people who will become doctors rather than something else. If the costs of schooling and specializations and establishing practices were not offset by healthy income, the supply of doctors will decrease.

4. Enormous taxes for everybody in order to pay for universal health care. Refer to point 1.

This refer to point 1 implies that the only issue is the tax cost. Government does a terrible job purchasing goods and services. It is inefficient, subject to scandals and misappropriation by politicians. In essence we are adding another layer of cost on top of a health care system.

5. Patients will wait months and years for care. This will especially hurt the elderly the most. The elderly will die waiting for care. This already happens, plus people will be welcome at all hospitals instead of those just approved by their health insurance.

I have not met an elderly person who died waiting for health care. Under this plan, the incentive for the government is to throw enough red tape in the works (something government is real good at) to cause many to die waiting for care. As for access under current plans, most allow full access or simply a larger deductible for out of net work service.

6. No guarantee illegal aliens will not be recipients of health care that American taxpayers (you and me) will pay through the nose for. For the better of mankind. Funny how you preach peace and humanity yet you feel it is alright to deny someone good health. I think you need to re-think your morals.

This is one area where we can see savings. Mexicans may do better or as well in their own country getting health care.

7. Government bureaucrats will determine who will receive care and who won't. Won't everyone receive care, how is it that your worried that illegal aliens will get it but you won't?...

Health care will get rationed if government is involved. Simple see what the veterans homes and hospitals are like.

8. Health care will no longer be determined by doctors and their patients but be run by a nameless faceless government bureaucracy. You act like medicare or medicaid doesn't have horrible issues as is.

Medicaid is coverage for the uninsured and is rationed as explained before. Medicare is mandated but its effect on the whole health care system is not complete. Doctors and patients are still able to thrive in the remaining market.

If your so worried about the costs of such things, why don't we start taxing churches, that should bring in some $100 billion+

Why not all charities, and why not taxing the states too?

188 posted on 07/21/2009 2:10:33 PM PDT by Raycpa
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To: ninergold3

What a good little commie....he must get the Times on his doorstep since those replies are simply repeated ad nauseum by the propagandists who lay claim to others people’s money and overall best interests.

I fear those self-righteous types the most since they hide behind a cloak of “morality” thus disguising their true intentions which eventually lead to eroding liberty and gaining control.


190 posted on 07/21/2009 2:16:12 PM PDT by JerseyDvl (Since they call Bush, "Dubya" then I must insist on calling Barry, "Hussein" *2009=1984 on steroids*)
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To: ninergold3
Tell him to go watch the movie "The Unbearable Lightness of Being." Tell him to note that under Communist rule (socialism), the protagonist, Tomas went from being a neurosurgeon to a window washer or somesuch.

Cheers!

236 posted on 07/21/2009 4:00:00 PM PDT by grey_whiskers (The opinions are solely those of the author and are subject to change without notice.)
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To: ninergold3

Tell him.. We don’t need no stinkin’ Gov’t Health Care! Private insurance would be affordable if we had tort reform and sent illegal immigrants home!


287 posted on 07/21/2009 7:53:29 PM PDT by divine_moment_of_facts ("To anger a Conservative, lie to him.. To anger a Liberal, tell him the truth.")
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To: ninergold3
Private bankruptcies are one thing. This is an unsustainable bill according to the CBO. The government will go bankrupt.
The taxes alone will cause more bankruptcies. NYS tax is expected to go up to 51 - 53%. So his reasoning is to cause MORE bankruptcies for people you don't even know?
The bankruptcy rate will skyrocket from the tax burden alone and then there will be those who still aren't getting medical care.

rationed is exactly what will happen according to Ted Kennedy. It is the only way it will work. Obama even said that people will have to learn to take a pill, and americans go to the hospital too much now.

Doctors may start out as wanting to help people. but when they have to pay exorbitant amounts of money and time for their practices, they need money to survive as well.
Not to mention not one bit of tort reform. Doctors can still be sued, only the government is exempt for forcing you to see one.

people do not wait half as long as they will be. We currently have a shortage of health care people in the field. We have about 200 million people in the usa with health care. We will be adding between 34 and 50 million more. The wait will go from days to weeks just to get in. from weeks for treatment to months. Some people won;t survive the waits then.
His plus, you can only go to a government approved hospital and get less treatment. Less money to pay for it, less service. No one can be turned away from a hospital anywhere in the usa based on ability of payment it's already a law.
Again, the elderly will be waiting even longer thanks to this plan.

Morals? How is being forced by your government to pay for someone you don't even know against your will and depriving your family of what YOU have earned and worked for a good thing? It is called stealing, maybe he should check HIS MORALS.
Does he really think that he should be able to take whatever he wants just because someone else has it and has worked for it? If he wants it, go out and earn it like the rest of us do instead of being a leach on society.
Morals .. what a joke!

No, everyone will not get care. The CBO said that even though this plan is far over budget and is unsustainable some 15 million people will still not be covered.
Even worse, some people just don;t want it, but they will have it forced upon them.
But the little commie apparently doesn't care about individual freedom or choice.

medicade and medicare do have horrible issues, along with the va. But all of these programs are a shining example of how bad the government can screw up something that is supposed to "help" people. Fraud, waste and spending is the hallmark here. Not to mention that people on medicade and medicare are being cut left and right already because it cant be afforded. Six states have cut back on their health care programs because they can not afford them now.
The federal government will be taking 500 billion dollars from it's program of medicaid to help pay for this monstrosity and they are still short.

Taxing churches? That do his charitable work of helping to feed, clothe and shelter the homeless? Where will these people go then?

The church gets donations from people based upon their faith. that is where people chose to put their money, again he is trying to take the choice from where people want to put what they have earned and steal it to pay for himself.

Could this kid be any more selfish self-centered and a socialist. he has no problem forcing a church to pay taxes .. he is stealing from people who try to promote good will.

also , please pass this along to the little a$$hole if you would with my compliments:

COMMUNIST RULES FOR REVOLUTION (Captured at Dusseldorf in May 1919 by Allied Forces)
1.    Corrupt the young; get them away from religion. Get them interested in sex. Make them superficial; destroy their ruggedness.
2.    By specious argument cause the breakdown of old moral virtues; honesty, sobriety, continence, faith in the pledged word, ruggedness.
3.    Encourage civil disorders and foster a lenient and soft attitude on the part of government toward such disorders. (L.A. riots were just a coincidence? ... Of course!)
4.    Divide the people into hostile groups by constantly harping on controversial matters of no importance. (Racial differences?)
5.    Get people's minds off their government by focusing their attention on athletics, sexy books, plays, and other trivialities.
6.    Get control of all means of publicity. (Media)
7.    Destroy the people's faith in their natural leaders by holding the latter up to contempt, ridicule and obloquy (disgrace).
8.    Cause the registration of all firearms on some pretext, with a view to confiscation and leaving the population helpless.
This is only a partial list. It was secured and stamped with the seal of Florida State Attorney, George A. Broutigam. This material testimony was taken from someone he terms "a known member of the Communist Party". According to this Communist's testimony this strategy is still part of the Communist plan to overthrow free societies such as the United States.

He has been had and is nothing but what the KGB called a "useful idiot"

best of luck with the war of logic with an unarmed socialist sympathizer, your going to need it. He has been indoctrinated well.
here are some more links:


Reformers' Claims Just Don't Add Up
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, July 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Reform: Many extravagant claims have been made on behalf of the various health care "reforms" now emerging from Congress and the White House. But on closer inspection, virtually all prove to be false.

Bay State Rationing
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Thursday, July 16, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Care: Massachusetts' universal medical program is no longer universal. Coverage is being dropped for 30,000 because not enough money is around to pay for everyone. There's a lesson in this for Congress.


Tax Hike Comin'
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Thursday, July 16, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Paying For Reform: New data from a nonpartisan think tank confirm our worst fears about health care reform: The plans proposed by the White House and Congress will lead to economically ruinous tax hikes.



A Right That's Wrong
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Reform: Of the many objectionable provisions in the House's latest medical insurance bill, none is as destructive or morally offensive as the one that declares health care to be a "right."


It's Not An Option
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Wednesday, July 15, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Congress: It didn't take long to run into an "uh-oh" moment when reading the House's "health care for all Americans" bill. Right there on Page 16 is a provision making individual private medical insurance illegal.


Fix Medicare First
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Thursday, July 09, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Care: President Obama says a new public insurance plan is needed to keep private companies "honest." Well, to be honest, there's already a public plan, and it's hurtling toward insolvency.



The Undercovered
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Wednesday, July 08, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Care: Having been on the receiving end of a letter-writing campaign, we are acutely aware that many are concerned about the plight of the uninsured. Too bad they're not similarly aware of the facts.


HELP For Whom?
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Monday, July 06, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Reform: A Senate health care bill will force Americans to buy health insurance whether they want it or not. Where the extra doctors to treat them will come from is anybody's guess.


Canada's Single-Prayer Health Care
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Tuesday, June 30, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Reform: A critically ill premature baby is moved to a U.S hospital to get the treatment she couldn't get in the system we're told we should emulate. Cost-effective care? In Canada, as elsewhere, you get what you pay for.


Lower-Cost Health Reform? Yeah, Right
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Thursday, June 25, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Care: Does the public option plan stand a better chance of becoming law now that a new estimate pegs the cost at less than $1 trillion? Better hope not. It's just another rosy federal projection hiding the true cost.


Public Menace
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Wednesday, June 24, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Care: President Obama defends his federal plan as a tool to "discipline" private insurers. If that's really what he wants, why not set up a national market with real competition for a change?

Union Favors
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Tuesday, June 23, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Congress: With health care nationalization apparently headed for the morgue in the House and Senate, the latest scheme to revive it is to give union health plans a special tax break. This will create a Frankenstein.


Dead Wait
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, June 19, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Reform: As Americans debate who's in control of their health care system, a lot of Britons aren't concerned about how the argument turns out. They're too busy trying to get a hospital room before it's too late.


Why The Rush?
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Friday, June 19, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Leadership: A pattern is emerging for this new presidency. The more radical and far-reaching the plan, the less time the public gets to debate it. Is this due to ambition or fear of push-back?



Congress' Unhealthy Care Plan
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Care: The CBO says a government-run health care system would cause 23 million Americans to lose private coverage, cost $1 trillion dollars and still leave 30 million uninsured.

Why He Was Booed
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Wednesday, June 17, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Care: President Obama talked a lot about cutting medical costs during his 7,300-word speech to doctors Monday. But he rejected the only item he brought up that would actually cut medical costs.


The Phantom Uninsured
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Tuesday, June 16, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Care: The administration uses the "46 million uninsured" as a reason to nationalize health care. But the Census Bureau says about a fifth of those aren't U.S. citizens. In fact, a goodly number are illegal aliens.


Truth-Mongering
By INVESTOR'S BUSINESS DAILY | Posted Tuesday, June 16, 2009 4:20 PM PT
Health Reform: The president predicts "scare tactics and fear-mongering that (have) worked in the past," warnings of "socialized medicine," "rationed care" and bureaucratic control. Real fears deserve mongering.


YouTube - Ronald Reagan Speaks Out Against Socialized Medicine Audio 10:06
http://tiny.pl/hh9pg

Analysis: House Health Care Bill’s Price Tag Tops $1.6 Trillion
http://tiny.pl/hh999



337 posted on 07/22/2009 1:37:03 AM PDT by Munz (All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.)
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To: ninergold3

“You act like medicare or medicaid doesn’t have horrible issues as is.”

Your friend’s son just refuted his entire list of arguments. Idiot is an appropriate label for that little marxist.

The only thing that anyone needs to know is that as soon as the government is providing health care, that is the day the government is now in control of every individual’s physical being. In addition, there is no longer any semblence of medical privacy between the doctor and patient, therefore negating Roe v. Wade. These dolts don’t even realize that they are hoping to overturn Roe.

And finally, this is my response to the marxists:

So, when this “health care for all” crap passes, right now the legislation states that it will be illegal to sell private policies over the date of passage. It also says that HSA’s will no longer be allowed. That means that my current policy will no longer be allowed and neither I nor my employer will be allowed to privately purchase an alternative.

I will not accept the “public option” that I will be dictated to join. I will not give the government control over my physical body. I will not pay their fines, I will not surrender to the impending warrant for my arrest. When they knock on my door, I will not answer. When they kick it in, I will make the news.

How’s that for unification, libtards? You loons are currently legislating my death. I will chose the terms and I will bring as many of you along as possible!


353 posted on 07/22/2009 5:56:09 AM PDT by CSM (Business is too big too fail... Government is too big to succeed... I am too small to matter...)
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