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Cat out of the Bag: Dem Congresswoman Admits ObamaCare Covers Elective Abortions
LifeSiteNews ^ | 8/12/09 | Peter J. Smith

Posted on 08/12/2009 3:57:31 PM PDT by wagglebee

SAN JOSE, California, August 12, 2009 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A Democratic Congresswoman admitted to her California constituents gathered at a town-hall meeting what the Obama administration has tried desperately to keep quiet: the health care reform bill covers abortions.

"We know that over 90 percent of abortions are purely elective, not medically necessary. Why is this being covered when abortion is not clearly health care," Ignacio Reyes, a local pro-life advocate, asked Rep. Zoe Lofgren (D-Cali.) at a San Jose town-hall meeting.

As the applause for Reyes subsided, Lofgren, who represents California's 16th Congressional District, responded that the proposed Congressional reforms included "a basic benefit plan developed by health professionals."

"Abortion will be covered as a benefit by one or more of the healthcare plans available to Americans, and I think it should be," said Logren, eliciting jeers and protests from the crowd.

Footage of Logren's town-hall meeting (complete with subtitles) was recorded and posted to the internet by David Schmidt, a young pro-life videographer and founder of the website "Issues and Justice".  

Although abortion groups, such as Planned Parenthood Federation of America and NARAL Pro-Choice America, continue to claim the existence of an abortion mandate is a "myth," the Associated Press instead confirmed that H.R. 3200 - the only version accessible to the general public out of five other bills on health-care reform - includes abortion coverage under the Capps Amendment.

The Capps Amendment explicitly mandates that the public health insurance option - which aims to provide for 46 million Americans who now lack coverage - will cover abortions through federal funding not restricted by the Hyde amendment. The Hyde amendment, which must be renewed on an annual basis, only prohibits federal funding going to the Department of Health and Human Services (HSS) from paying for abortion. But as the AP report confirmed, that leaves open other streams of federal funding, which under the health bill (HR 3200) could be used to subsidize abortion.

Although the Capps provision forbids the proposed "Health Benefits Advisory Committee" from mandating abortion-coverage as an essential service in the "Health Insurance Exchange," it does mandate that every U.S. region have at least one abortion-covering private insurance plan. It also mandates one non-abortion-covering private insurance plan for every region.

The amendment goes on to require taxpayer subsidies in the form of "affordability credits" to flow to insurance plans that include abortion, but then demands insurers guarantee the "affordability credits" do not subsidize abortion procedures, as if somehow money loses its fungible nature.

Family Research Council first brought attention to the abortion mandate attached to HR 3200 in a provocative ad in which an elderly man finds out he is denied a surgical procedure, while the government plan covers abortions. (see FRC video)

Read related coverage by LifeSiteNews.com:

Palin Firestorm Brings Fresh Scrutiny to ObamaCare "Death Panels"
Dr. Emanuel, key Obama health care advisor, stated doctors take Hippocratic Oath too seriously 

Catholics United, NARAL Blast Family Research Council for Exposing Abortion Mandate in Health Bill 

Obama Healthcare Reform Bound to Include "Largest Expansion of Abortion Since Roe v. Wade": NRLC, Chris Smith 

Proposed Health Care Bill is an "Abortion Industry Bailout" Warns Congressman



TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abortion; bhoabortion; bhohealthcare; healthcare; lofgren; moralabsolutes; obamacare; prolife; zoelofgren
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If it's just a "clump of cells" it shouldn't bother them to admit it.
1 posted on 08/12/2009 3:57:32 PM PDT by wagglebee
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To: cgk; Coleus; cpforlife.org; narses; Salvation; 8mmMauser

Pro-Life Ping


2 posted on 08/12/2009 3:58:19 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: 185JHP; 230FMJ; 50mm; 69ConvertibleFirebird; Albion Wilde; Aleighanne; Alexander Rubin; ...
Moral Absolutes Ping!

Freepmail wagglebee or DirtyHarryY2K to subscribe or unsubscribe from the moral absolutes ping list.

FreeRepublic moral absolutes keyword search
[ Add keyword moral absolutes to flag FR articles to this ping list ]


3 posted on 08/12/2009 3:58:58 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; Jet Jaguar; NorwegianViking; ExTexasRedhead; HollyB; FromLori; ...

The list, ping


4 posted on 08/12/2009 4:01:05 PM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: wagglebee

Obama “health care” will cover everything that in any way, supports his Marxist agenda and the building of his voter base.


5 posted on 08/12/2009 4:01:12 PM PDT by EagleUSA
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To: wagglebee

EZEKIEL EMANUEL AND THE OBAMA CARE FINAL SOLUTION

(Must Read - Shocking, cited quotes by Emanuel)

6 posted on 08/12/2009 4:03:40 PM PDT by Jeff Head (Freedom is not free...never has been, never will be. (www.dragonsfuryseries.com))
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To: wagglebee

You can bet that if abortion funding is not specifically denied under whatever bill gets passed, it will be covered under the public plan. That’s the way these things work.


7 posted on 08/12/2009 4:05:25 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: wagglebee

This statement and the on camera idiocy of Obama yesterday are prime examples of why democrats were so desperate to push this monstrosity of a bill through so quickly.

They knew if there was any time for voters to read the bill and for Obama and other democrats to get in front of microphones it would be a disaster.


8 posted on 08/12/2009 4:09:15 PM PDT by Iron Munro (You can't kill the beast while sucking at its teat - Claire Wolfe)
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To: Tublecane
that H.R. 3200 - the only version accessible to the general public out of five other bills on health-care reform -

There are not five bills. There is only one bill(HR3200). Proposed legislation is still in mark up but hasn't reached the stage of becoming a bill.
9 posted on 08/12/2009 4:11:18 PM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it! FairTaxNation.com)
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To: wagglebee
It appears I'm going to have to change the way I refer to this Obamanation in my correspondence...

Instead of "DeathCare", it will now have to be "MurderCare".

10 posted on 08/12/2009 4:11:43 PM PDT by Gritty (Every collectivist revolution rides in on a Trojan horse of emergency - Herbert Hoover)
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To: wagglebee

Abortion will be included in ANY BILL that does not specifically exclude it.


11 posted on 08/12/2009 4:13:27 PM PDT by mathluv ( Conservative first and foremost, republican second - GO SARAHCUDA!!!!)
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To: wagglebee

The Catholic Churh, its Health Network Hosptials and Services and all Christian Churches and organizations must immediately ban together and demand Congress pass an amendment that bans such a service. Let’s see who votes against it? Are transgender operations covered too?


12 posted on 08/12/2009 4:14:18 PM PDT by Steelfish
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To: wagglebee

Lofgren has been flag’d for promoting fishy rumors.


13 posted on 08/12/2009 4:17:34 PM PDT by TNdandelion (I'd rather have FedEx run my healthcare than USPS.)
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To: wagglebee
Abortion is JUST a medical procedure. It is THE Holy Sacrament of the human secularist. It is the "blood on the altar" that proves to the human secularist that they are their own god. Of course someone has to pay for it and they don't see any reason why that shouldn't be the taxpayer. Disgusting.

Μολὼν λάβε


14 posted on 08/12/2009 4:23:31 PM PDT by wastoute (translation of tag "Come and get them (bastards)" or "come get some")
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To: Man50D

“There are not five bills. There is only one bill(HR3200). Proposed legislation is still in mark up but hasn’t reached the stage of becoming a bill.”

I never said how many bills there are. It doesn’t really matter to me what legislation is or is not pending officially in the bill stage. I said “whatever bill gets passed...” because amendments will no doubt be added (possibly no more than hours) before a floor vote. Also, we can be sure other bills will be pushed if the one under current consideration fails.


15 posted on 08/12/2009 4:28:19 PM PDT by Tublecane
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To: wagglebee

Obama is an Angel of Death.


16 posted on 08/12/2009 4:29:58 PM PDT by kromike
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To: wagglebee; Dr. Eckleburg

Apparently Catholics United supports abortion. Would any Catholic care to comment on what the official Catholic position is on what happens to the unborn baby if no ceremonial sacraments are performed by the baby or on the baby before it is thrown in the trash?

Those who hold to election understand that each chosen person is rescued irrespective of their lifespan, but it seems that the “free will” issues of Catholicism have a difficulty here. That is, unless they use that parachute, “age of accountability”. Where again is that Scriptural reference?


17 posted on 08/12/2009 4:30:13 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: All
Pinged from Terri Dailies


18 posted on 08/12/2009 4:35:44 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee; informavoracious; larose; RJR_fan; Prospero; Conservative Vermont Vet; ...
+

Freep-mail me to get on or off my pro-life and Catholic List:

Add me / Remove me

Please ping me to note-worthy Pro-Life or Catholic threads, or other threads of interest.

Obama Says A Baby Is A Punishment

Obama: “If they make a mistake, I don’t want them punished with a baby.”

19 posted on 08/12/2009 4:41:06 PM PDT by narses (http://www.theobamadisaster.com/)
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To: Tublecane; wagglebee
I never said how many bills there are. It doesn’t really matter to me what legislation is or is not pending officially in the bill stage

My apologies. I meant to post to wagglebee regarding the five bill statement in the article. Somehow I posted to you by accident.
20 posted on 08/12/2009 4:42:09 PM PDT by Man50D (Fair Tax, you earn it, you keep it! FairTaxNation.com)
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To: wagglebee

Now, THIS is what we should campaign on. THIS is something the Left understand. THIS is something they would care about.

Not dubious “death panel” argument that make us look like loons, not abortion itself, they’ll dismiss us as religious bigots, but about the uncontestable (even by so called fact check sites) *fact* that the taxpayers will have to pay for UNNECESSARY SURGERIES, because thats what elective abortions are.

Would Americans be outraged if ObamaCare reimbursed elective breast implant? Would they find weird that they would have to pay for someone’s sex change? Why the hell would they accept to pay for all the office party mistake?

Yes, abortion is the Devil’s handiwork, but guess what? No one cares unless they are really, REALLY religious, and the Left isn’t. If we want even consider our side, we have to start thinking like them, not like moral people. The amoral, egoist plebeian will react better to having to pay for someone else’s mistake than trying to convince them of our moral imperatives.


21 posted on 08/12/2009 4:49:29 PM PDT by Twofortea (Yes, I often differ from "accepted" Conservative views. So sue me.)
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To: Dutchboy88; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe; PetroniusMaximus; Salvation; NYer; Coleus; narses; ...
Apparently Catholics United supports abortion. Would any Catholic care to comment on what the official Catholic position is on what happens to the unborn baby if no ceremonial sacraments are performed by the baby or on the baby before it is thrown in the trash?

Those who hold to election understand that each chosen person is rescued irrespective of their lifespan, but it seems that the “free will” issues of Catholicism have a difficulty here. That is, unless they use that parachute, “age of accountability”. Where again is that Scriptural reference?

I am FRiends with a great many Evangelical FReepers and quite a few of them have longstanding issues with Catholic doctrine. However, I have ALWAYS known them to be openly supportive of Catholic efforts in the fight for life.

My sense, and if I am wrong I will be the first to admit it, is that your post is an attempt to engage Catholics in some sort of debate over the unborn and I WILL NOT participate in any such debate. ALL devout Christians are under attack by the left in ways that have not been seen for over sixteen centuries; whatever dogmatic differences we may have, we damn well better recognize those many beliefs we share because we are about to persecuted and very possibly jailed and our enemy really doesn't care if we are Catholic, Baptist, Calvinist, Protestant or anything else.

22 posted on 08/12/2009 4:52:41 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: narses; wagglebee

Pro-Life bump


23 posted on 08/12/2009 4:56:27 PM PDT by Dajjal (Obama is an Ericksonian NLP hypnotist.)
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To: wastoute

That’s right. It’s not much different than pagan infant sacrificies of old.


24 posted on 08/12/2009 5:11:06 PM PDT by Elvina (BHO is doubleplus ungood.)
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To: wagglebee; Dutchboy88; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe; PetroniusMaximus; Salvation; NYer; ...
I am FRiends with a great many Evangelical FReepers and quite a few of them have longstanding issues with Catholic doctrine. However, I have ALWAYS known them to be openly supportive of Catholic efforts in the fight for life.

You bet!

I'll stand with anyone who wants to protect life. It is one area where we are united.

FWIW, the abortion issue is as much a result of weak kneed pastors and priests as it is Christians not living for Jesus. By this I mean the lack of church discipline and Christians not holding brothers and sisters accountable. If our clergy promoted discipline and we supported it there would be a lot less of this evil. Instead we talk a good game, but we don't do what needs to be done.

IOW, throw the politicians & judges that support these policies out of the churches.

25 posted on 08/12/2009 5:11:40 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: Dutchboy88

Thank you for your continuing interest in Catholicism. If you cannot find a more recent thread on salvation of the unbaptised where you could post your question, do see “Limbo” on my profile page.


26 posted on 08/12/2009 5:14:18 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: wmfights
FWIW, the abortion issue is as much a result of weak kneed pastors and priests as it is Christians not living for Jesus. By this I mean the lack of church discipline and Christians not holding brothers and sisters accountable. If our clergy promoted discipline and we supported it there would be a lot less of this evil. Instead we talk a good game, but we don't do what needs to be done.

IOW, throw the politicians & judges that support these policies out of the churches.

I couldn't agree more. My biggest gripe with Catholic bishops is their reluctance to publicly excommunicate pro-abortion Catholic politicians. If they were to excommunicate Sebelius, Pelosi, Biden and others it would be a real wake up call to everyone else.

Catholic excommunication DOES NOT need to be permanent, all that would be necessary is repentance on the part of those who have been excommunicated. I believe that the GREATEST disservice any clergyman can do is to turn a blind eye to the sins of their congregants.

27 posted on 08/12/2009 5:20:19 PM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Catholic excommunication DOES NOT need to be permanent, all that would be necessary is repentance on the part of those who have been excommunicated.

That is the essence of church discipline in any Evangelical church. Once the Christian repents they are welcome. If this path was followed it would become real clear, real quick, that everyone must decide where they want to stand. Our churches might have smaller numbers and less influence over the whole society but there would be no question that their members were bringing light to the world.

28 posted on 08/12/2009 5:40:50 PM PDT by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wagglebee

I wasn’t aware that being pro-life had to include an agreement to avoid discussions/debates over the surrounding issues. My sense is that you don’t wish to discuss any of these and that is fine. However, nobody is the spokesman for everyone, if I am not mistaken.


29 posted on 08/12/2009 6:19:11 PM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: Coleus; nickcarraway; narses; Mr. Silverback; Canticle_of_Deborah; TenthAmendmentChampion; ...
Pro-Life PING

Please FreepMail me if you want on or off my Pro-Life Ping List.

"It is the duty of every patriot to protect his country from its government" - Thomas Paine

30 posted on 08/12/2009 7:19:10 PM PDT by cpforlife.org (A Catholic Respect Life Curriculum is available FREE at KnightsForLife.org)
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To: cpforlife.org; Nachum
With Obama's socialized medicine, the ones who lose the most are the very young, the old, and the handicapped.  Abortions are not only funded by socialist and communist governments, but in many cases they are mandated.  In communist China, for example, women having more than one child were in violation of the government mandate and forced to abort their child no matter what stage of pregnancy. I think they have relaxed their rules in recent years.

So Obama's socialized healthcare is just a sign of things to come.  I just hope that more and more people find out about Obama's plan for America sooner rather than later, so we will have a chance to stop it from becoming policy.

31 posted on 08/12/2009 7:53:56 PM PDT by Victoria Delsoul
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To: Victoria Delsoul
So Obama's socialized healthcare is just a sign of things to come.

I fear you may be right, but I hope not.

32 posted on 08/12/2009 8:43:41 PM PDT by Nachum (The complete Obama list at www.nachumlist.com)
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To: wagglebee
 
Pray for an end to abortion and a return to a culture of life in our nation.
 
 

33 posted on 08/12/2009 9:18:42 PM PDT by Salvation (With God all things are possible.)
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To: Gritty

Abortion advocates are a cult dedicated to murdering innocents as violently as possible.


34 posted on 08/12/2009 11:21:46 PM PDT by TheFourthMagi
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To: Dutchboy88; Dr. Eckleburg; xzins; P-Marlowe; wmfights; annalex
I wasn’t aware that being pro-life had to include an agreement to avoid discussions/debates over the surrounding issues. My sense is that you don’t wish to discuss any of these and that is fine.

Then you are mistaken. I simply don't see the need to make everything a Catholic vs. non-Catholic issue.

Many Catholics are pro-abortion, so are many Baptists, Calvinists, and other Protestants. The FACT is that the Catholic Church has ALWAYS been pro-life (despite the heretical views of some priests), many Protestant denominations (including many with Calvinist roots) CANNOT say this.

If you really want to have this debate, start your own thread, this one had NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church, YOU decided to bring that issue up. When my dear FRiend xzins posts a pro-life thread I wouldn't dream of going on the thread and trying to bring Methodism into it when the thread has nothing to do with the Methodists, there would be no reason to.

But, in answer to your previous query, I don't think any of us know for an absolute certainty what happens to an aborted baby because I am unaware of any Scripture that directly addresses the state of an aborted baby. Obviously the dead cannot be baptized. Then again, without birth it is impossible to be born into sin. Do I believe the 50 million American babies who have been murdered in the last 36 years are in Heaven? ABSOLUTELY.

35 posted on 08/13/2009 5:04:43 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Then again, without birth it is impossible to be born into sin.

Scripture says something else...

*** ***

Jeremiah 1: 4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,

5 "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you,
before you were born I set you apart;
I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."

6 "Ah, Sovereign LORD," I said, "I do not know how to speak; I am only a child."

*** ***

Hosea 12: 2 The LORD has a charge to bring against Judah;
he will punish Jacob according to his ways
and repay him according to his deeds.

3 In the womb he grasped his brother's heel;
as a man he struggled with God.

4 He struggled with the angel and overcame him;
he wept and begged for his favor.
He found him at Bethel
and talked with him there-

*** ***

John 3: 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son

*** ***

John 4: 23 Yet a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for they are the kind of worshipers the Father seeks. 24 God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth."

*** ***

We are all made in the image of God. God is a Spirit. Ergo, God is not concerned with the flesh! He knows we cannot stand faultless before Him.

God knows our spirits from the womb. There is nothing in Scripture that says all go to Heaven. It actually says the opposite.

He is risen...

36 posted on 08/13/2009 5:31:03 AM PDT by WVKayaker (God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it.-D.Webster)
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To: WVKayaker

NONE of those verses address the state of a person who was NEVER born. Or are you saying that some souls are simply damned to Hell by God and NOTHING can change that?


37 posted on 08/13/2009 5:49:15 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
...are you saying that some souls are simply damned to Hell by God and NOTHING can change that?

I can't definitively answer that, but there are plenty of Scriptures along those lines...

John 3: 5 Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." ...

*** ***

Romans 6: ... 28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified. ...

- with love from Jesus and Paul

38 posted on 08/13/2009 6:02:36 AM PDT by WVKayaker (God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it.-D.Webster)
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To: WVKayaker

How can one who has NEVER been born be born again?


39 posted on 08/13/2009 6:12:54 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
How can one who has NEVER been born be born again?

Are you saying that a baby in the womb is not a person? Are you saying that God is unable to know the future as well as the past and present?

Are you arguing with God, or me? I haven't created anything, nor do I have special revelations from Him. I only have His Word as revealed in the Scriptures, testimonies, and letters that we call our "Holy Bible", and the indwelling Holy Spirit to guide me and help me understand it...

Your understanding could be distorted if you find otherwise. Please respond with the Word of God, not the yearnings of your heart.

40 posted on 08/13/2009 6:22:23 AM PDT by WVKayaker (God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it.-D.Webster)
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To: WVKayaker
Are you saying that a baby in the womb is not a person?

Absolutely not, I am saying that they have not yet been born.

Are you saying that God is unable to know the future as well as the past and present?

No, are you saying that we don't have free will? Are you saying that some are NEVER given the chance for Salvation?

Please respond with the Word of God, not the yearnings of your heart.

As I have already stated, Scripture is SILENT regarding those who are NEVER born.

41 posted on 08/13/2009 6:36:27 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
Aborted babies are "born". I am not "saying" anything. I am quoting what Scripture says. You just don't see it. Open your eyes, and read them again. It's even been translated into English for you.

I won't bother to repeat my previous quotes, but try actually reading what God says, not me!

God says ALL have sinned. The penalty for sin is death; eternal separation from God. God says He has known us from the womb. Therefore, we can extrapolate that we are completely open to God from conception, and before.

As previously stated, I don't make the rules. They are already in print! I just accept that God knows more than I, and I believe He knows my/our heart(s) from and through all eternity! Your mileage may vary.

Romans 9: 10 Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

42 posted on 08/13/2009 6:47:53 AM PDT by WVKayaker (God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it.-D.Webster)
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To: WVKayaker

So, where do YOU believe the aborted babies are?


43 posted on 08/13/2009 6:53:43 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee

Tap the brakes. You really are not the arbiter of whether I am mistaken. And, if you don’t see a “need”, then don’t do it. But, until threads are given such limitations, the rest of us will post as we think is appropriate.

And, it did have something to do with the Catholic Church because there was a link to Catholics United.

Further, it is interesting that there exists a compulsion to deliver a treatise on the salvation of the unborn, all the while making sure that we understand a response is not appropriate. Hmmm.


44 posted on 08/13/2009 7:13:21 AM PDT by Dutchboy88
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To: wagglebee
So, where do YOU believe the aborted babies are?

Wherever God wants them!

Waggleby, I "foreknew" what your responses would be to my posts. I have seen your rote Roman Catholic learnings displayed constantly. I decided that today would be a good day to open this debate after reading your postings to others on this thread.

Your indoctrination and training has been quite good. But, it follows the RC lines, and often denies or belittles what Paul has to say about many things at odds with their goal of keeping their coffers overflowing. Fear of excommunication is a big one, if you believe your church is your salvation, and that only membership in your "church" makes you a "Christian". That is what you believe, isn't it?.

You say that the Scriptures says nothing, yet I posited that God has already spoken on the subject. You are calling God a liar, not me!

Moses never made it to the "Promised Land"!

Deuteronomy 4: 15 You saw no form of any kind the day the LORD spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, 16 so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, 17 or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, 18 or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below. 19 And when you look up to the sky and see the sun, the moon and the stars—all the heavenly array—do not be enticed into bowing down to them and worshiping things the LORD your God has apportioned to all the nations under heaven. 20 But as for you, the LORD took you and brought you out of the iron-smelting furnace, out of Egypt, to be the people of his inheritance, as you now are.

21 The LORD was angry with me because of you, and he solemnly swore that I would not cross the Jordan and enter the good land the LORD your God is giving you as your inheritance. 22 I will die in this land; I will not cross the Jordan; but you are about to cross over and take possession of that good land. 23 Be careful not to forget the covenant of the LORD your God that he made with you; do not make for yourselves an idol in the form of anything the LORD your God has forbidden. 24 For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God.


45 posted on 08/13/2009 7:22:51 AM PDT by WVKayaker (God grants liberty only to those who love it, and are always ready to guard and defend it.-D.Webster)
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To: Dutchboy88
And, it did have something to do with the Catholic Church because there was a link to Catholics United.

So, you would agree that ANY group that claims to be Calvinist in nature speaks for Calvinism? That is like saying that the AARP speaks for all retirees.

Further, it is interesting that there exists a compulsion to deliver a treatise on the salvation of the unborn, all the while making sure that we understand a response is not appropriate. Hmmm.

Hmmm is right. YOU are the one that brought up salvation.

46 posted on 08/13/2009 7:59:29 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: WVKayaker; xzins; P-Marlowe; PetroniusMaximus; Alex Murphy; annalex; Petronski; NYer; trisham; ...
Wherever God wants them!

So, you agree that Scripture is SILENT regarding the state of murdered unborn babies?

I have seen your rote Roman Catholic learnings displayed constantly. I decided that today would be a good day to open this debate after reading your postings to others on this thread.

So, you decided to pick a thread which has NOTHING to do with the Catholic Church to tell me that I was wrong?

Your indoctrination and training has been quite good. But, it follows the RC lines, and often denies or belittles what Paul has to say about many things at odds with their goal of keeping their coffers overflowing.

Can you give an instance?

if you believe your church is your salvation, and that only membership in your "church" makes you a "Christian". That is what you believe, isn't it?.

You COULDN'T be more wrong.

You say that the Scriptures says nothing, yet I posited that God has already spoken on the subject. You are calling God a liar, not me!

NO, I'm calling YOU a liar.

47 posted on 08/13/2009 8:07:21 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: wagglebee
...if you believe your church is your salvation, and that only membership in your "church" makes you a "Christian". That is what you believe, isn't it?....

Be careful with this one, wagglebee.

He might not know what he's saying is complete baloney, but he reserves the right to drive to where you live to have it out with you.

48 posted on 08/13/2009 8:11:13 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: wagglebee
My sense, and if I am wrong I will be the first to admit it, is that your post is an attempt to engage Catholics . . .

I believe the more accurate verb here is "to provoke."

49 posted on 08/13/2009 8:13:06 AM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Petronski

If they want to provoke Catholics that’s fine, they should just pick a thread with actually has something to do with Catholic doctrine. This thread is about Zero’s deathcare plan.


50 posted on 08/13/2009 8:14:38 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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