Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

To: LearsFool
A weakened people are ripe pickings for any tyrant, foreign or domestic.

True, but a people who fail to properly restrict the scope of their government are equally at risk to a monster of their own creation. If a people submit to any measure to stave off a potential tyrant, they will simply fall to another tyrant, though it may be one they are more familiar with.

...And as I've argued earlier, in joining ourselves together, we relinquish that absolute freedom which that solitary man "in the state of nature" enjoys. We have formed governments because, although they're an "evil", they're a necessary one. In consenting to form these governments, we consented to be governed by "the will of the majority restrained".

True. In joining society, we give up certain liberties like being able to exact private retribution against those who harm us, being able to take what we want at will regardless of the wishes of others, etc. I do not think we relinquish all liberty to the whims of the majority, however. We should cede to government only that much liberty which is necessary to preserve the remainder.

But the problem is not just with those who wish "to waste away their time and their money getting high in private" - as you yourself admit in Section I. Rather, there are drugs which are so powerful as to pose a threat to those who don't wish their lives affected by them. A man may be permitted to buy enough sleeping tablets to be fatal. But that doesn't mean we'll let him walking around the crowded town square with a vial of volatile nitroglycerin in his pocket.

Yes, and those drugs which do pose a threat to others are precisely the type that I believe the community should be empowered to prohibit. But I don't believe EVERY drug fits into this category. Any substance we ingest can, in some small measure, have an effect on others. But I don't think we want the majority to have unlimited power in deciding what we may and may not ingest. As a reasonable limitation, I propose that restrictions may only be imposed when the matter to be ingested poses a serious and almost certain risk of harming others.

...Where you and I part ways even further is that I go a step beyond the immediate, perceived damage done by drugs. Berzerker frenzies and burglaries and superficial damage. But beneath the crime statistics is the societal rot which brings down nations and cultures...

If we accept something other than rights protection as a legitimate role of government, particularly if we accept something as general as preventing "societal rot" or preserving "community strength", what limits remain on the power of government? Almost any activity can threaten the health and vibrancy of a community. Trash tv is corrosive to our values and to our ability to think independently. Racist speech and behavior are extremely destructive to social harmony and cohesiveness. Crass commercialism leaves us spiritually empty. Gluttony and sloth drag down our productivity and put strain on families. The rise of "infotainment" leaves us ignorant and susceptible to propaganda. Lack of financial discipline leads to dependence and desperation. I could go on and on.

Do we really want our governments to be empowered to regulate all of those things? What liberties would be safe if the community can restrict them in the name of community well-being?

274 posted on 08/24/2009 11:23:56 AM PDT by timm22 (Think critically)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 273 | View Replies ]


To: timm22
We should cede to government only that much liberty which is necessary to preserve the remainder.

I couldn't agree more. Where we disagree is on how much that is.

I propose that restrictions may only be imposed when the matter to be ingested poses a serious and almost certain risk of harming others.

Here we agree once again. But where we disagree is on what constitutes a risk great enough to warrant prohibition.

If we accept something other than rights protection as a legitimate role of government, particularly if we accept something as general as preventing "societal rot" or preserving "community strength", what limits remain on the power of government?

Do you accept insuring domestic tranquility as a legitimate role of government? No, I'm not just being a smarty-pants; and this role is, obviously, limited by what follows the Preamble. But the point is that it's one of the reasons for what follows. I absolutely do, therefore accept something other than the protection of liberty as a legitimate role of government, namely, utilizing the means necessary for the protection of liberty. That may sound like a nit-picky distinction, but let me explain.

Where I think you make your mistake is in seeing only the direct and immediate threats to liberty. I think that's shortsighted. Without a government insuring domestic tranquility - and establishing justice, and providing for the common defense as well - there is no protection of liberty.

The founders weren't so foolish as to think that the way to protect liberty was to repeal all restrictions on individual behavior. But so-called "libertarians" would have us believe that's the only way to do so. The founders crafted constitutions and laws designed to maximize liberty, not only without endangering it, but also giving it strong protection. The provisions of the Constitution itself sometimes infringes on liberty. By contrast, some libertarians would in fact endanger liberty, with proposals which would undermine her very bulwarks.

Almost any activity can threaten the health and vibrancy of a community. Trash tv is corrosive to our values and to our ability to think...(etc.)

The founders of this country saw nothing wrong with banning many destructive activities. Unlike us, they were more concerned with what freedom is for than with exploiting it for their own ends. They realized that liberty is often perverted into license, which then, like Frankenstein's monster, turns and devours liberty.
275 posted on 08/24/2009 1:10:10 PM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 274 | View Replies ]

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article


FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson