[Quiller]

100% of the teachers accept the materials given, the programs implemented, the propaganda presented, and do nothing about it.

Again, wrapping yourself in the certainty of your generalizations. An error I have been pretty successful in teaching good students not to do.

And for some reason, the abuse leveled on those kids is okay with you. It is reasonable to you that those kids get shafted.

Again, ascribing statements and motives to me which have no basis in anything I have said. An error which I have been pretty successful in teaching students not to do.

Do you object loudly in public? Why no, you allow it to continue. It may not be continuing in your room, put you satisfy yourself that it really doesn’t matter, if it happens in a lot of other rooms.

Why yes, as a matter of fact, I have complained loudly. As a teacher in the classroom, and as a citizen to the school board. I found that whle excoriating teachers might win you a little, "I sure gave them a piece of my mind," satisfaction, it's the actions taken at a political level that have success. Because ultimately, it is a political decision. I suggested to you the course of action which has the best success. But it takes a lot more effort than posting a diatribe and a link, so it just won't get done.

Good grief, where do you folks get your moral thinking caps?

From the same book which I manage to introduce into my classroom, for purely academic purposes, of course.

I apologize, I should have noticed the signs in some of your earlier comments. Teachers and administrators with "holier than thou" attitudes. The "here comes a live one" comment. I understand your rage better, in review.

You have spent years raising a wonderful child (sure, some of the relatives outside the immediate family don't care much for the child, but you don't care for them, either) who deserves everything you've given him or her. The child is a free spirit, very creative, and does many wonderful things. But those darned teachers. It seems that every one of them is incompetent, or has it in for your child specifically. And of course, the child has perfectly reasonable complaints about the succession of teachers who have targeted him (or her) for unfair treatment, beyond what any other student receives.

There are so many bad teachers, that from year to year, or pressuring the school to switch the child from one teacher to another doesn't matter, you still get nothing but bad teachers, because they are ALL bad. And that darned school. How unfair! Your child has to suffer the indignities of school discipline because the administration is just as bad, and takes the words of all those bad teachers who have it in for your wonderful child. Early on, you accepted the word of the teacher, but your child has learned that "No" the first time the child asks means "No," but after the fiftieth time, "No" becomes, "Oh go ahead." Because it just isn't right to punish the child for the teacher's shortcomings. And Of course the student won't do his or her work -- who would, for such bad teachers?

So even after years of putting up with such poor excuses for professionals, and maybe even finding that ADHD, or ADD, or ODD, or some other alphabet soup of learning affliction (which requires some moderate drugging, and has absolutely nothing with how the child was raised) you take action. At this point, you might have actually tried the home schooling route. But all it did was pull you away from work you could not afford to miss, and you couldn't be home to do the work, and besides, it isn't your job to make up for those terrible teachers.

So private school becomes the final solution. A school which is profit-motivated, and its high cost supports a comfortable 12:1 or 15:1 student:teacher ratio. You've finally found the "good" teachers, who accept your wonderful child just the way he or she is, and have learned (through careful guidance by the school's directors) never to suggest to a paying parent that his or her raising of a child might have some bearing on what the child is. Because if the parent pulls the child, the school doesn't get paid. It might have even taken a couple of moves to find the "good" school.

Wake up, DOh -- schools are generally what society has made them, because political decisions are what drive the school. If you want to get something done, it will have to be accomlished on either the political level (which you're not going to do), or on the personal level (which is beyond you also). My school is routinely #1 in its district, which is rarely lower than #3 in its state. In international competitions, we have had students that ranked within the top 20 of 5,000 competitors at their level. And that is because there are some of us who have not accepted the problem, but have learned that solving it by getting in there and bailing out the boat will get more done than expecting the public to do anything more than whine about the failure of the pumps. Your syllogism that no good teacher would tolerate the situation, and not tolerating the situation would demand an exodus, therefore any teacher who is in the classroom is a bad teacher (or immoral, or whatever other insults you have hurled to bolster your self-image) is foolish.

As I said -- W-a-a-a-a-y off thread topic now, and pointless to carry this further. You are wrapped in the security of your generalizations, shielded by your ignorance (as I've said in class, ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, if you are honestly trying to fix it, but willful ignorance is self-destructive) and I've got too many papers to grade. Ciao.

[DoughtyOne]

100% of the teachers accept the materials given, the programs implemented, the propaganda presented, and do nothing about it.

Again, wrapping yourself in the certainty of your generalizations. An error I have been pretty successful in teaching good students not to do.

Your pretty good with the mouth, not so good with the ears.

Are you telling me the leftist materials are not in your classroom or school?  Are you telling me you folks didn't implement any of the leftist programs in your school?  Are you telling me that there is no leftist propaganda presented to your students on your campus?  Are you telling me that you have stopped all that in your school?  If you can tell me these things, then what are you complaining to the school board about?

You are kidding nobody but yourself with your denials.  Your school is under attack by the leftists just like every other school in this nation, and by your own admission you have found it necessary to object.  You just haven't found it necessary to refuse to allow it to continue.

As for you being successful in teaching your 'good students..., it's my take that you have taught them a hell of a lot more than you are aware of.

And for some reason, the abuse leveled on those kids is okay with you. It is reasonable to you that those kids get shafted.

Again, ascribing statements and motives to me which have no basis in anything I have said. An error which I have been pretty successful in teaching students not to do.

In my response above, I asked you if certain things were taking place in your school.  From your comments on this thread, I know damned well most of that is taking place.  So do you.  So why are you prancing around this issue as if it didn't exist in your school.

You state that I am generalizing.  Is it generalizing to realize that you stated yourself that you have had to complain as a teacher and a member of the community, but that you can't stop what is going on, it will have to be done at the political level?

Have you been pretty successful in convincing your good students that none of this was taking place on their campus?  You're sure as hell not convincing me.  And frankly, you're not even buying into it.  If you had to complain, then you acknowedged to yourself those problems existed.

Do you object loudly in public? Why no, you allow it to continue. It may not be continuing in your room, put you satisfy yourself that it really doesn’t matter, if it happens in a lot of other rooms.

Why yes, as a matter of fact, I have complained loudly. As a teacher in the classroom, and as a citizen to the school board. I found that whle excoriating teachers might win you a little, "I sure gave them a piece of my mind," satisfaction, it's the actions taken at a political level that have success. Because ultimately, it is a political decision. I suggested to you the course of action which has the best success. But it takes a lot more effort than posting a diatribe and a link, so it just won't get done.

Okay, you object loudly.  So we agree you have things taking place in your school that are unacceptable.  None the less, you continue to allow those things to continue, as you go about your daily activities at the school.  So who does defend the children in your area from being abused by the public education system?   Well, other than speaking out a few times, you certainly don't.

We have brought this down to the person level, because you objected to my generalizations.  I'm not really interested in disparaging you on a personal level.  I'm willing to accept that you have a number of fine qualities as a teacher, but please quit trying bull s--t a bull s--tter.  We both know there are problems on all of our school campuses these days.  We both know that someone has to stand up and refuse to play along any longer.  Still you simply refuse to take any ownership of bringing this to a head.  How am I supposed to react to that?

You tell me that you are a great teacher and that there are plenty of them out there, and have told me that I am grosely unfair to generalize.  In the next breath you admit that you have to speak out at board meetings and as a teacher, while defending your school telling me how great the scores are and it's ranking in the state.  So let's boil this down from what you have admitted.  Your school has serious problems along the lines of what I have been addressing.  You have had to speak out at board meetings and as a teacher.  You have accepted and tried to convince me that you are powerless to take a stand.  You are never going to join with fellow teachers and make a stand.  Your school ranks well in your state academically.  My reaction is that as long as test scores are okay, there's no real reason to rock the boat on your campus.  And if moral relativism and dumbing down our kids as to our heritage and values base take place, it's just not worth you declaring enough is enough.

And your conclusion is that I am grosely unfair to you and other teachers.  Well if that is an example of me being grossly unfair, then wow, will I wear that hat proudly.

Good grief, where do you folks get your moral thinking caps?

From the same book which I manage to introduce into my classroom, for purely academic purposes, of course.

Well that sure has fixed everything hasn't it.  You admit that you have to complain loudly, but you and the fellow employees of the school district can't get things fixed.  When I fault you for allowing things to continue down this road without walking out and explaining to the public why, you fault me for being unfair.

I apologize, I should have noticed the signs in some of your earlier comments. Teachers and administrators with "holier than thou" attitudes. The "here comes a live one" comment. I understand your rage better, in review.

Now you stoop to being dismissive.  In the next sentence you quote my 'holier than thou comments', make fun of my 'here comes a live one' phrase, thus proving my point, and then toss in the 'rage' insult.  So much silliness and so little actual comprehension of the matters at hand...  Rage?  Hmmm, why would anyone be upset by what was taking place in our schools, and that educators would allow this downward trend to continue and even speed up?  Aren't I a silly guy for not accepting this.

As for your flailing pseudo appology attempt at an insult, let me remind you that it isn't me you're screwing over.  It's the children of your community that deserve to have people stand up and defend them.  If I am to take you at your word though, you don't think they deserve an appology for what is continuing to take place at their school.  You can't fix anything and so it's just another day in paradise....

You have spent years raising a wonderful child (sure, some of the relatives outside the immediate family don't care much for the child, but you don't care for them, either) who deserves everything you've given him or her. The child is a free spirit, very creative, and does many wonderful things. But those darned teachers. It seems that every one of them is incompetent, or has it in for your child specifically. And of course, the child has perfectly reasonable complaints about the succession of teachers who have targeted him (or her) for unfair treatment, beyond what any other student receives.

Now I see what it takes to make a "good teacher" take a stand.  Why it's that stupid member of the public that has the audacity to stand up to you and tell it like it is.

You know, you're problem seems to be that you have spent too many years in classrooms talking down to people. When someone disagrees with you and nails you to the wall, your only comeback is that you are right and they are wrong.  They should listen to you, because YOU ARE a good teacher.  How dare they state that teachers should march out on the streets of their community and take a stand.  Anyone would have to be a fool to suggest such a thing.

This little diatribe of yours is just getting started.  Lets read more...

There are so many bad teachers, that from year to year, or pressuring the school to switch the child from one teacher to another doesn't matter, you still get nothing but bad teachers, because they are ALL bad. And that darned school. How unfair! Your child has to suffer the indignities of school discipline because the administration is just as bad, and takes the words of all those bad teachers who have it in for your wonderful child. Early on, you accepted the word of the teacher, but your child has learned that "No" the first time the child asks means "No," but after the fiftieth time, "No" becomes, "Oh go ahead." Because it just isn't right to punish the child for the teacher's shortcomings. And Of course the student won't do his or her work -- who would, for such bad teachers?

God, what a blowhard...  let me tell you how some of us lame brain parents see things tiger.

I had one child at 13 that decided she didn't want to do any schoolwork.  She told her school counselor that she was abused at home and this in the school counselor's mind made it impossible to contact the parents and let them know what was going on at school.  He didn't want her to be unfairly punished after all.  He befriended her, because this poor little thing needed some positive adult input.  She obviously didn't get any of that at home.

Other teachers were informed of the situation.  This little thirteen year old manipulated that school's staff like a well tuned fiddle.  The conselor, several teachers, and the school principle devised a policy where the parents would not be notified of her activity.  When she didn't do homework, they kept quiet.  When she skipped school, they kept quiet.  When she was caught smoking off campus, they remianed quiet.  When they found out that she was meeting up with nineteen and twenty year old men at her friends house, they remained quiet.  When asked later why they allowed all this to happen, they explained that she was participating in sessions with the school counselor, and it would have been a breach of confidence for them to disclose any information to the parents.

Not once in any of this did it occur to them that they might have a problem child on their hands.  Finally about four months into that school year, they made contact with me because they had finally reached the point where they wanted to kick her out of school, and you can't do that sort of thing unless the parents are involved.

I don't need your lectures butch.

So even after years of putting up with such poor excuses for professionals, and maybe even finding that ADHD, or ADD, or ODD, or some other alphabet soup of learning affliction (which requires some moderate drugging, and has absolutely nothing with how the child was raised) you take action. At this point, you might have actually tried the home schooling route. But all it did was pull you away from work you could not afford to miss, and you couldn't be home to do the work, and besides, it isn't your job to make up for those terrible teachers.

Yawn.

So private school becomes the final solution. A school which is profit-motivated, and its high cost supports a comfortable 12:1 or 15:1 student:teacher ratio. You've finally found the "good" teachers, who accept your wonderful child just the way he or she is, and have learned (through careful guidance by the school's directors) never to suggest to a paying parent that his or her raising of a child might have some bearing on what the child is. Because if the parent pulls the child, the school doesn't get paid. It might have even taken a couple of moves to find the "good" school.

My children attended private school for their first seven years.  Thank God, I might add...  because the local public school was filled to the brim with chilren from another nation who couldn't speak a word of English.  My children spent about 75% of the day reading, while the other students were taught English.  The other kids focused in on my children because they were one of very few white kids in the classroom.  They also began starting fights with them on the playground.  You see, that perfect school just wasn't quite perfect enough for my kids.  And I'm sure you can tell what a lousy parent I was for not accepting this wonderful example of the public education system for my children.  As for the private school, they did a great job.  I did have some problems with them, but by and large, the education my children got during those years was top notch.  Teachers were not afraid to make contact with me and tell me when they had problems.  For the most part they communicated well, often, and worked with me.  So your own generalizations are insipid on the face of it.

Wake up, DOh...

I'm not one of your students.  I'm not going to go sit/stand in the corner.  You can't send me to the principle's office.  You can't dock my grade because I have you pegged for what you are.  And each of your responses has reinforced what I picked up about you in your first post.  Do ridicule me all you like.  It's okay.  I don't expect anything else from you.

-- schools are generally what society has made them, because political decisions are what drive the school. If you want to get something done, it will have to be accomlished on either the political level (which you're not going to do), or on the personal level (which is beyond you also). My school is routinely #1 in its district, which is rarely lower than #3 in its state. In international competitions, we have had students that ranked within the top 20 of 5,000 competitors at their level. And that is because there are some of us who have not accepted the problem, but have learned that solving it by getting in there and bailing out the boat will get more done than expecting the public to do anything more than whine about the failure of the pumps. Your syllogism that no good teacher would tolerate the situation, and not tolerating the situation would demand an exodus, therefore any teacher who is in the classroom is a bad teacher (or immoral, or whatever other insults you have hurled to bolster your self-image) is foolish.

Yep, society made your school what it is.  Politicians, parents, state officials, people in Washington, D.C. are the real culprits.  Obviously the principal, the deans, the counselors, the psychologists, the school nurses and the teachers have nothing to do with it.  Since that's the case, why did you waste your time trying to inform me what a great school you have.  You and every other staff-member that goes to the location of the school each day has nothing to do with what goes on there.  And you call me foolish?  With your thought processes being what they are, I thank you for calling me foolish.  I'd sure hate to think you approved of my take on this, seeing what passes for logic in that brain of yours.

As I said -- W-a-a-a-a-y off thread topic now, and pointless to carry this further. You are wrapped in the security of your generalizations, shielded by your ignorance (as I've said in class, ignorance is nothing to be ashamed of, if you are honestly trying to fix it, but willful ignorance is self-destructive) and I've got too many papers to grade. Ciao.

I agree it's pointless.  Your premise that all the problems with our schools are everyone elses fault but the people who work in them, is preposterous.

Papers to grade?  Why didn't you realize you are powerless?  It's only people outside your school who are responsible for what takes place there.  You don't need to do paperwork.  You're not required to do anything at all.  You can't do anything at all.

Ciao right back atcha.