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To: rxsid; Don Corleone; pissant

Let me begin by saying that I know that I will not be able to convince you that the phrase “natural-born citizen” as used in Article II, section 1, clause 5 of the U.S. Constitution refers, as I strongly believe, to a person that is a U.S. citizen at birth according to the laws in place when he was born, and that a person can be a natural-born citizen of the U.S. irrespective of his parents’ citizenship status. While I believe that it is incorrect to interpret the Constitution in the way that you do, it is certainly your right to do so, and I consider your theory far more plausible than many theories that the U.S. Supreme Court has ended up endorsing. I also know that while I could show you law journal articles on the subject written long before Obama even thought about running for president that argue that the prevailing interpretation has always excluded such a niggardly interpretation of Article II, section 1, clause 5, you would surely be able to show me well reasoned articles pointing in the opposite direction. So, on that point, I think that we should agree to disagree.

That being said, please note that if you take the position that a person that is a U.S. citizen at birth but one of whose parents was not a U.S. citizen when such person was born is not a natural-born citizen of the U.S. that it would mean that it was unconstitutional when the Republican Party nominated Chester Arthur for VP, when the Electoral College elected him VP, when he was sworn in as VP, and when he was sworn in as President upon the death of James Garfield.

Chester Arthur’s father was a British subject from Northern Ireland that did not become a naturalized U.s. citizen until Chester Arthur was around 14 years old. While Arthur’s political opponents in the 1880 election did question whether Arthur was a natural-born citizen, they did so based on the theory that Arthur had been born not in northern Vermont, but just across the border in Canada, and that under the laws at the time of Arthur’s birth a person born in Canada whose father was not a U.S. citizen was not a citizen at birth irrespective of his mother’s citizen status. Had Americans in 1880 believed that a person born in the U.S. to an American mother but whose father was a foreign subject would not be deemed a natural-born citizen you can be certain that it would have been shouted from the rooftops and that Arthur’s political opponents would not have wasted time trying to prove (unsuccessfully) that Arthur was born in Canada.

BTW, the mothers of Woodrow Wilson and Herbert Hoover were from Scotland and Canada, respectively, but they quite possibly had become naturalized U.S. citizens when their presidential son was born, so those probably aren’t additional counterexamples.

I hope you take this constructive criticism to your theory in the spirit in which it was offered.


99 posted on 10/22/2009 3:32:17 PM PDT by AuH2ORepublican (If a politician won't protect innocent babies, what makes you think that he will protect you?)
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To: AuH2ORepublican
that it would mean that it was unconstitutional when the Republican Party nominated Chester Arthur for VP, when the Electoral College elected him VP, when he was sworn in as VP, and when he was sworn in as President upon the death of James Garfield.

Those all were unconstitutionial.

Had Americans in 1880 believed that a person born in the U.S. to an American mother but whose father was a foreign subject would not be deemed a natural-born citizen you can be certain that it would have been shouted from the rooftops and that Arthur’s political opponents would not have wasted time trying to prove (unsuccessfully) that Arthur was born in Canada.

Problem was, it could not be proved, until long, long after Arthur was dead and gone that his father was not a citizen at the time of his birth. Not sure if anyone even tried to prove that, believing Arthur's lies about when his father came to the US, where his siblings were born (some in Canada) and even his own age!

Obama, OTOH, has admitted that his father was not a citizen at his birth, or ever for that matter.

Somewhat different situations. Arthur is not precidence for any Natural Born Citizen theory, because the fact of his father's lack of US citizenship at Chester's birth was not known.

101 posted on 10/22/2009 3:40:27 PM PDT by El Gato ("The Second Amendment is the RESET button of the United States Constitution." -- Doug McKay)
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To: AuH2ORepublican; Don Corleone; pissant
Indeed, we would disagree. I see no written record from the framers that would indicate they intended the term "Natural Born Citizen" to include those who were born a dual national, and thus born under the "jurisdiction" of a foreign power. It just wouldn't even make sense in light of what they were trying to do with the singular position of Commander in Chief of the armed forces by putting in the specific NBC requirement that allowed dual nationals to be considered eligible.

On the Chester Arthur cover-up, interestingly a very similar situation accured with him that's occuring with Barry. That is, those that sought to show he was not a NBC did so on the basis of where he was born (or where they thought he was born)...and that being in Canada. Turns out, that probably wasn't true (that he was born in Canada), but the issue of his father being a foreign national (who, more than BHO Sr., was at least permanently "domiciled" in the U.S.) was not brought up.

As to the other POTUS's you mention who had foreign born parent(s), every single one of them was naturalized before the birth of the (future) POTUS. Thus, at the time of their births', they had 2 parents who were citizens of this country and who therefore owed no allegiance to another, nor could they then pass any foreign citizenship to their child as well. Donofrio has some writings on his site regarding these very issues.

104 posted on 10/22/2009 4:00:36 PM PDT by rxsid (HOW CAN A NATURAL BORN CITIZEN'S STATUS BE "GOVERNED" BY GREAT BRITAIN? - Leo Donofrio (2009))
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