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To: Hacklehead
>> It takes training and the right mindset to fight back <<

Yes, of course. You make a very thoughtful and valid point.

But I believe that "fighting back" is exactly what we should expect from a group of well-trained soldiers, whether they are armed or unarmed.

As I think about the matter, moreover, two scenarios come to mind:

First is the image of the firefighters and cops in New York on 9/11, who rushed into those burning infernos to save others, with little regard for their own safety. That kind of selfless, automatic response is how I think well-trained soldiers should respond to any emergency.

Second is the image of the cops in New Orleans during Katrina, who ran away and abandonned their posts in droves. I guess this second scenario of "instinctual" (to use your word) human behavior is what ruled the day at Ft. Hood. And this conclusion seems not to be a good commentary on the way some members of our military have been trained.

55 posted on 11/06/2009 6:27:40 AM PST by Hawthorn
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To: Hawthorn
But I believe that "fighting back" is exactly what we should expect from a group of well-trained soldiers, whether they are armed or unarmed.

That was my first thought
58 posted on 11/06/2009 6:31:10 AM PST by uncbob
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To: Hawthorn

“But I believe that “fighting back” is exactly what we should expect from a group of well-trained soldiers, whether they are armed or unarmed. ‘

One would think so, but apparently that is not the case. That could be where mindset plays a role. If you are a fireman responding to a fire, you are prepared to act and your training kicks in. If you are a soldier sitting in a supposedly safe area and suddenly find yourself in a life or death situation, it may take a short time to respond. People talk about the fight or flight response, but there is a 3rd option, which is to freeze. When fighting is not really an option (against an armed gunman for example), or if fleeing isnt possible (no escape routes), people tend to freeze or hesitate). This made sense for primative humans faced with a lion, where they cant really fight and cant outrun it. Hunker down, stay quiet and hope it doesnt see you, then wait until the lion kills one of your tribemates and then escape while it’s busy eating. These days such a strategy is fatal since the predator has the means and desire to kill EVERYONE in the room. Fortunately, instincts can be overcome with training.


63 posted on 11/06/2009 6:58:23 AM PST by Hacklehead (Liberalism is the art of taking what works, breaking it, and then blaming conservatives.)
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To: Hawthorn
But I believe that "fighting back" is exactly what we should expect from a group of well-trained soldiers, whether they are armed or unarmed.

Would you expect the receptionist at the local FD to run into a fire? Would you expect the janitor of the local PD to run into a gun fight?

I'm guessing you have never been in the military. 90% of the military is admin/logistics/support. Only about 10% are trigger pullers who may be trained in unarmed combat against an armed and motivated opponent.

It's been 25+ years since I was on Ft. Hood, and that was only for a 2 week FTX, but the place in big, real BIG. There are places where if this incident took place it would result in an artillery attack being called in or maybe be met by a platoon of ground pounders just looking for some range time.

There are also plenty of locations where it would be the same as sitting in a Starbucks and reading a paper and it would be the local baby sitter who you are expecting to respond.

Sorry they didn't live up to your expectations. If you have ever run to the sound of the guns you may offer your opinion, if not just let it go.

69 posted on 11/06/2009 7:54:03 AM PST by 11Bush
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To: Hawthorn
But I believe that "fighting back" is exactly what we should expect from a group of well-trained soldiers, whether they are armed or unarmed.

Maybe, but there are some branches in the Army that are NOT combat arms. For example, there are branches for medical, civil affairs, finance, and legal personnel. After basic training, personnel in these branches receive little if any combat training. I am curious to know the branch(es) of the victims.

85 posted on 11/06/2009 10:48:46 AM PST by matt1234
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