Posted on 11/10/2009 6:31:58 AM PST by Huck
The Federalists were actually Nationalists. They created the consolidated government that oppresses us. They were not asked to do so. They were merely supposed to make a few small changes to the confederacy. They went way beyond that simple task, and created a national leviathan. Their attempts at "checks and balances" and delegation of power have been proven to be laughably impotent in the face of the national monster they created. Their contrived limits on national power are like the chains that were supposed to keep Frankenstein bound to the operating table.
The main point of this essay is simply to show that a) the "federalists" were in fact nationalists, b) national governments are more dangerous than confederations, c) we did not require a national, consolidated government.
Step outside the box, and imagine if we'd NEVER created the national government.
I have to agree. The Anti-Federalists predictions have proven correct, with a level of accurate prognostication that is truly scary. It took less than a century (the Constitution actually died during the Civil War—what has passed as “constitutional government” since then have just been the twitches of the tail of a dying snake). We’re just about done. Very shortly, we will enter into a level of government scrutiny and control of our actions that make “1984” and “Big Brother” look like a libertarian fantasy.
Good point, really.
While I hadn’t before considered that the constitution itself might be the problem, I agree with your assesment of our current status.
Hence my screen name.
What really opened my eyes to our plight several years ago was the realization that most “conservatives” are little more than “liberal-light”. I guess W has a lot to do with that.
I would argue the opposite--the Civil War was the natural result of the Constitution:
"We are cautioned . . . against faction and turbulence. I acknowledge that licentiousness is dangerous, and that it ought to be provided against. I acknowledge, also, the new form of government may effectually prevent it. Yet there is another thing it will as effectually do- -it will oppress and ruin the people." - Patrick Henry" In the most limited governments, what wranglings, animosities, factions, partiality, and all other evils that tend to embroil a nation and weaken a state, are constantly practised by legislators. What then may we expect if the new constitution be adopted as it now stands? The great will struggle for power, honor and wealth; the poor become a prey to avarice, insolence and oppression. And while some are studying to supplant their neighbors, and others striving to keep their stations, one villain will wink at the oppression of another, the people be fleeced, and the public business neglected. From despotism and tyranny good Lord deliver us." -Philanthropos (Antifederalist Paper #7)
The Constitution created the national government that waged the Civil War. Before the Constitution, were were a confederation of independent states. After the Constitution, we were a consolidated republic with supreme power OVER the states. The Constitution didn't die in the Civil War. It brought about the Civil War. Like most big government boondoggles, the Constitution brought on the very thing it was supposed to prevent.
In reality, those "conservatives" are more sensible and realistic than the ones clamoring for "limited government", appealing to limits supposedly found in the Constitution. The truth is all questions are merely political, and virtually anything is fair game for national power. Neither side can or will do anything to stop it or change it. Just look at 100 years of commerce clause jurisprudence, for example. Interstate commerce doesn't have to interstate, or commerce. Even Scalia agrees with that notion.
There are very few if any true limits on national power. It's too late to do anything about it either. The only thing to do now is to battle it out constantly on the political field. So you get a "conservative" party. It's like England, with the tories and the labor party. Same deal. All battles are political battles. The Supreme Court is a political organ. Everything is political. The Constitution gives broad, virtually unlimited power to DC, and the parties rule all. Their tenticles extend into every state government. It's a big consolidated mess.
After reading the Federalist papers, I had to admit that I was Anti-Federalist. I agreed with the arguments that we were creating the foundations for what is happening in Congress today.
“In reality, those “conservatives” are more sensible and realistic than the ones clamoring for “limited government”..”
Ahhh.. Therein lies the rub. “realistic” = pragmatic = slippery slope = “how we got here”.
I’ve just started my reading on my quest to determine why these men who professed such a love of liberty would come up with something so (IMO) vile.
I suspect I’ll find it was pretty much all about the war. A combination of lack of trust amongst the states, no clear determination of who was supposed to be paying for the war, and the demand by the French that the States show strong unity before any aid would be rendered.
I think it’s going to be very difficult for me to determine which side I would have been on at the time. Today I’m an AF, but 230 years ago I might have been a reluctant Federalist.
Sometimes I think laws need expiration dates. Then again, it’s scary to think that if the Constitution was to expire at just the right time we might end up with something much worse.
I'm just saying it makes no more sense clamoring for "constitutionally limited government" than it does to clamor for unicorns and chocalate rivers. The Constitution provides the national government with virtually boundless power.
"We are vain, like other nations. We wish to make a noise in the world; and feel hurt that Europeans are not so attentive to America in peace, as they were to America in war. We are also, no doubt, desirous of cutting a figure in history"
The Federalist papers are almost comical. Conservative commentators constantly laud them, but they are monuments to bad judgement and error.
Huck,
I’ve noticed that conservative commentators laud the federalist papers too. I wonder why this is. Any ideas?
I look at it differently. You ever listen to Rush Limbaugh? He often talks about how government programs get judged not on the results, but on the good intentions. They never get deemed a failure based on results. Well, then, what about the Constitution? It was a big government program--creating a consolidated national government to replace the confederation of states. How has it done in practice, nevermind intentions? It's been a failure.
Was Madison correct that the national gubmint's powers would be "few and defined", or were the antifeds correct that the national government would use the courts and various clauses of the Constitution to weild virtually unlimited power?
I think it's a pretty radical notion to say the Constitution was a mistake. I don't think conservative talkers would have much of an audience with that tack. In short, I think they keep it easily digestible, and carry water for the GOP.
Actually, I think we're both right. From 1789 until the Civil War, we were still a "grouping" (by whatever name applies) of sovereign states, operating under the Constitution. The Civil War destroyed that point of view (illegally, in my view). On the moral question of slavery, the South was wrong. On the political question of secession and state sovereignty, the South was right.
As soon as the Constitution was ratified, the states were no longer sovereign. It took a while for it to become obvious, and for all the various supreme court cases interpreting the constitution to pile up, but it was a fait accompli. The Constitution killed state sovereignty.
Still can't agree. State sovereignty is plainly stated in the Bill of Rights. I agree that the Supreme Court didn't help matters, by ignoring the Ninth and Tenth Amendments, but the outcome was far from inevitable. It took an illegal war to accomplish.
The 9th amendment has nothing to do with state sovereignty. The 10th amendment is the one in question:
Amendment XThe powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the states, are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people.
The key phrase is "powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution." Who decides what that means? The Supreme Court. The federal beast decides for itself. And as we know, the "general welfare" clause, the implied powers of the necessary and proper clause, the various and ever growing "commerce clause" power give the fedzilla almost unlimited scope. And all that was teed up and in place at ratification.
So they weren't deeply involved in questions of liberty and good government. Far from it. They were simply a regional interest run amok. They added to the list of things about which James Madison was wrong. He had predicted that the new government would stifle factional rivalries. That was one of the reasons we supposedly needed a new constitution: the confederacy was at risk of intrastate war, they warned. And yet the national government created by the framers led us directly into civil war.
I'd have some respect for the slavers if they had put any thought into a real constitution. They even say "we the people" not "we the states" as the old articles of confederation did. It's absurd.
The old articles are pretty cool. There was no supreme court. Cases were settled by the United States in Congress.
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