"I feel lucky. Make a wish!"
Posted on 12/04/2009 2:09:23 PM PST by GodGunsGuts
Wrong. Try reading the Bible. It is the greatest literature known to man and horses are mentioned in it often. Here is one of the oldest references to horses in the book of Job. The book of Job also has detailed descriptions of dinosaurs.
Job 39:19 Hast thou given the horse strength? hast thou clothed his neck with thunder?
Job 39:20 Canst thou make him afraid as a grasshopper? the glory of his nostrils [is] terrible.
Job 39:21 He paweth in the valley, and rejoiceth in [his] strength: he goeth on to meet the armed men.
Job 39:22 He mocketh at fear, and is not affrighted; neither turneth he back from the sword.
Job 39:23 The quiver rattleth against him, the glittering spear and the shield.
Job 39:24 He swalloweth the ground with fierceness and rage: neither believeth he that [it is] the sound of the trumpet.
Job 39:25 He saith among the trumpets, Ha, ha; and he smelleth the battle afar off, the thunder of the captains, and the shouting.
For several years, Australian creationists, representing the Creation Science Foundation Ltd, [now Answers in Genesis] have been publishing articles and addressing school and public groups on the topic of the age of the Earth. The theme of these articles and talks is that there is scientific evidence that the geological features of Australia are explicable within the context of an Earth which is only some 6-10,000 years old and that most such features can be attributed to a world-wide flood which occurred more recently still. The author of these claims made them with the authority of a BSc (Hons) in Geology and a PhD. However, in a recently published paper, this same author makes some very different claims about the age of geological features of the Australian landscape.
These remarkably contradictory, and unexplained, claims by one of the very few Australian creation ‘scientists’ who has genuine scientific qualifications, calls into question whether anything said by this group on the subject can be taken seriously.
Dr Alex Ritchie, palaeontologist at the Australian Museum, takes up the story.
There appear to be two geologists living, working and publishing in Australia under the name of Dr Andrew A Snelling. Both have impressive (and identical) scientific qualifications - a BSc (Hons), in Geology (University of NSW) and a PhD, for research in uranium mineralisation (University of Sydney).
Curiously, both Drs Snelling use the same address (PO Box 302, Sunnybank, Qld, 4109), which they share with an organisation called the Creation Science Foundation (CSF), the coordinating centre for fundamentalist creationism in Australia.
But the really strange thing about this is that the views of these two Drs Snelling, on matters such as the age of the earth and its geological strata, are diametrically opposed. This article, the result of my extensive searches through the literature, highlights this remarkable coincidence and poses some serious questions of credibility for the Creation Science Foundation and for either or both of the Drs Andrew A Snelling.
For convenience I refer to them below as follows:
(a) Dr A A Snelling 1 - creationist geologist, a director of CSF and regular contributor to, and sometime editor of, the CSF’s quarterly magazine, Ex Nihilo (now CREATION ex nihilo).
(b) Dr A A Snelling 2 - consulting geologist who works on uranium mineralisation and publishes in refereed scientific journals.
Snelling 1 seldom, if ever, cites articles written by Snelling 2 and Snelling 2 never cites articles written by Snelling 1.
Snelling 1
For the past ten years Dr Andrew Snelling BSc, PhD, the CSF’s geological spokesman, has been the only prominent Australian creationist with geological qualifications. His credentials are not in question here, only his influence on science education in Australia.
Snelling 1 writes articles for creationist journals and lectures throughout the country in schools, public meetings and churches. Although his geological credentials are usually highlighted in creationist publications it would be more accurate to describe Snelling 1 as a Protestant evangelist, not as a geologist. Some CSF literature openly refers to him as a ‘missionary’.
Why should Snelling 1’s activities concern the scientific and educational communities? To appreciate this, one needs to analyse his published articles to see how geological data and discoveries are misused and reinterpreted from a Biblical perspective.
CSF members subscribe to a lengthy, very specific Statement of Faith. Apart from purely religious clauses, not relevant here, several clauses carry serious implications for those in scientific and educational circles, especially for those in the Earth (and other historical) sciences. As the extracts below reveal, to a dedicated creationist, scientific evidence is always subservient to Biblical authority.
“(A) PRIORITIES
1. The scientific aspects of creation are important but are secondary in importance to the proclamation of the gospel of Jesus Christ as Sovereign, Creator and Redeemer.
(B) BASICS
3. The account of origins presented in Genesis is a simple but factual presentation of actual events and therefore provides a reliable framework for scientific research into the question of the origin and history of life.
5. The great flood of Genesis was an actual historical event, worldwide in its extent and effect.
(D) GENERAL
The following attitudes are held by members of the Board to be either consistent with Scripture or implied by Scripture
(i) The scripture teaches a recent origin for man and for the whole creation.
(ii) The days in Genesis do not correspond to Geological ages, but are six
(6) consecutive twenty-four (24) hour days of creation.
(iii) The Noachian flood was a significant geological event and much (but not all) fossiliferous sediment originated at that time.
(iv) The chronology of secular world history must conform to that of Biblical world history.”
These statements reveal ‘creation science’ to be an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms, based on religious dogma (and a simple minded dogma at that). Despite its name, ‘creation science’ has little to do with real science and, in fact, represents the antithesis of science.
Everything in his creationist writings and activities indicates that Snelling 1 subscribes fully to CSF’s Statement of Faith. Where this clashes with scientific evidence, the latter is always secondary to the former and his message, although often cloaked in scientific jargon, is simple and unequivocal; indeed one of his favourite lecture topics is “Why, as a Geologist, I Believe in Noah’s Flood”.
From the Gospel according to Snelling 1, the Earth is geologically young, created ex nihilo (”from nothing”) by a supernatural being, during a short, well defined construction period of only six days. This miraculous creation event, usually dated some 6000 years ago (around 4004 BC), is not the end of the story. The Earth we live on today is not the same as the original created model, which was almost totally destroyed and remodelled some 1,600 years later (around 2345 BC) by an irate Creator who conjured up an unique, world-wide Flood to do the job.
This Flood, lasting just over one year, tore down all previous land surfaces, rearranged the continents and thrust up all existing mountain chains. It also destroyed all pre-existing life forms, plant and animal - except for a chosen few saved on Noah’s Ark. Thus all of the remarkably complex geology of the present day Earth’s crust formed during the one year of Noah’s Flood and all the innumerable fossil remains of former animals and plants were all buried and preserved by the same Flood.
Snelling 1 (1983a) presented his views on Flood chronology in an article, Creationist Geology: The Precambrian. After reviewing mainstream views on geology and evolution, he remarked:
“On the other hand, creationists interpret the majority of the fossiliferous sedimentary rocks of the Earth’s crust as testimony to Noah’s flood....Creationists do this because they regard the Genesis record as implying that there was no rain before Noah’s flood, therefore no major erosion, and hence no significant sedimentation or fossilisation.”
“However the flood was global, erosional and its purpose was destruction. Therefore the first major fossilisation commenced at this time, and the majority of the fossils are regarded as having been formed rapidly during this event. Creationists therefore regard sedimentary strata as needing to be classified into those formed during the time of creation week, pre-flood, flood (early, middle and late), post-flood and recent” (p. 42)
Snelling 1 then quoted one J C Dillow, a creationist writing on the Earth’s supposed pre-Flood “vapour canopy”:
“It should be obvious that if the Earth is only 6000 years old, then all the geological designations are meaningless within that framework, and it is deceptive to continue to use them. If, as many creationist geologists believe, the majority of the geological column represents flood sediments and post-flood geophysical activity, then the mammoth, dinosaur and all humans existed simultaneously .... Some limited attempts have been made by creationist geologists to reclassify the entire geological column within this framework, but the task is immense.” (Dillow 1981, “The Waters Above”. Moody Press, 405-6)
Snelling 1 criticised Dillow and other creationists for restricting Flood strata to Phanerozoic rocks (Cambrian and younger) and claimed that most Precambrian rocks are also Flood deposits:
“It is my contention that those who do this have failed to study carefully the evidence for the flood deposition of many Precambrian strata and have therefore unwittingly fallen into the trap of lumping together the Precambrian strata to the creation week. The usual reason for doing this is that the evolutionists regard Precambrian as so different, so devoid of life in comparison with other rocks, that creationists have simply borrowed their description.” (1983, 42).
Snelling 1 thus pushes the earliest limits of Flood strata far back into the Early Precambrian (early Archaean) times , before even the first appearance of fossils resembling blue-green algae:
“What I am contending here is that fossils, whether they be microscopic or macroscopic, plant or animal and the fossil counterpart of organic matter, along with its metamorphosed equivalent graphite, are the primary evidence which should distinguish flood rocks from pre-flood rocks, regardless of the evolutionary ‘age’.” (1983, 45).
Lest there remain any doubt, Snelling 1 (1983, 42) stated:
“For creationists to be consistent the implications are clear; Precambrian sediments containing fossils and organic remains were laid down during Noah’s flood. Creationist geologists need to completely abandon the evolutionist’s geological column and associated terminology. It is necessary to start again, using the presence of fossils or organic matter as a classification criterion in the task of rebuilding our understanding of geological history within the Biblical framework.”
It is difficult to believe that the writer of the foregoing article has a BSc (Hons) and PhD in geology! However an examination of other articles by the same author in Ex Nihilo reveals that, to Snelling 1, everything geological (Ayers Rock, Mt Isa ore deposits, Bass Strait oil and gas, Queensland coal deposits, Great Barrier Reef, etc.,) can be explained as the result of Noah’s year-long Flood.
DOOLAN, ROBERT & ANDREW A SNELLING, 1987. Limestone caves ...a result of Noah’s Flood? Limestone caves... a result of Noah’s Flood? (4), 10-13.
READ, PETER & ANDREW A SNELLING, 1985. How Old is Australia’s Great Barrier Reef? Creation Ex Nihilo. 8(1), 6-9.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1982. The Recent Origin of Bass Strait Oil and Gas. Ex Nihilo 5 (2) 43-46.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1983. Creationist Geology: The Precambrian. Ex Nihilo 6 (1), 42-46.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1983. What about Continental Drift? Have the continents really moved apart? Ex Nihilo 6 (2), 14-16.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1984. The recent, rapid formation of the Mt Isa orebodies during Noah’s Flood. Ex Nihilo 6 (3) 40-46 (cf. also abstract 17-18).
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1984. The Origin of Ayers Rock. Creation Ex Nihilo 7 (1).
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1986. Coal Beds and Noah’s Flood. Creation Ex Nihilo 8 (3), 20-21.
SNELLING, ANDREW A 1989. Is the Sun Shrinking? Creation Ex Nihilo (pt. 1) 11 (1), 14-19. (pt. 2) 11 (2), 30-34. - The Debate Continues. (pt. 3) 11 (3), 40-43 - The Unresolved Question.
SNELLING, ANDREW A & John Mackay 1984. Coal, Volcanism and Noah’s Flood. Ex Nihilo Tech. J. 1, 11-29.
SNELLING 2
If we now turn to the scientific articles published by the other Dr A A Snelling, consulting geologist (also from PO Box 302, Sunnybank QLD, 4109), we find a remarkable contrast, both in approach and content. None of them mention the Creation or Creation Week, Flood geology or the need to revamp the classic geological timescale.
The latest paper by Snelling 2 (1990, 807 -812) is a detailed technical account of the “Koongarra Uranium Deposits” in the Northern Territory. It appears in an authoritative two volume work on “Geology of the Mineral Deposits of Australia and Papua New Guinea” (ed. F E Hughes), published by the Australasian Institute of Mining and Metallurgy, Melbourne. The references list eight earlier papers by Snelling 2 in refereed journals (or symposium volumes) on aspects of uranium mineralisation; three as sole author and five as junior co-author.
In discussing the regional geology (p. 807) and age (p. 811) of the Koongarra uranium deposits, Snelling 2 describes their geological history in fairly technical terms, however, to avoid the charge we lay against the creationists, of taking quotations out of context, I will quote Snelling 2 verbatim from the paper (p. 807):
“The Archaean basement consists of domes of granitoids and granitic gneisses (the Nanambu Complex), the nearest outcrop being 5 km to the north. Some of the lowermost overlying Proterozoic metasediments were accreted to these domes during amphibolite grade regional metamorphism (5 to 8 kb and 550° to 630° C) at 1870 to 1800 Myr. Multiple isoclinal recumbent folding accompanied metamorphism.”
For the benefit of lay readers, this statement is summarised and simplified here:
“The oldest rocks in the Koongarra area, domes of granitoids and granitic gneiss, are of Archaean age (ie to geologists this means they are older than 2500 million years). The Archaean rocks are mantled by Lower Proterozoic (younger than 2500 million years) metasediments: all were later buried deeply, heavily folded and, between 1870 and 1800 million years ago, were subjected to regional metamorphism at considerable temperatures and pressures.”
There is no question here of “abandoning the geological column and its associated terminology”, and the term Myr refers unequivocally to millions of years.
One further quotation (p.807), “A 150 Myr period of weathering and erosion followed metamorphism.”, is self explanatory.
There are several further references to ages of millions and thousands of millions of years, and to commonly accepted geological terminology, throughout the paper but, to spare the lay reader, I will only summarise them here:
1. During Early Proterozoic times (from 1688-1600 million years ago) the area was covered by thick, flat-lying sandstones.
2. At some later date (but after the reverse faulting) the Koongarra uranium mineral deposit forms, perhaps in several stages, first between 1650-1550 million years ago, and later around 870 and 420 million years.
3. The last stage, the weathering of the primary ore to produce the secondary dispersion fan above the No 1 orebody seems to have begun only in the last 1-3 million years.
Nowhere in this, or in any other article by Snelling 2 is there any reference to the creation week, to Noah’s Flood or to a young age for the Earth. Nor is there any disclaimer, or the slightest hint, that this Dr Snelling has any reservations about using the standard geological column or time scale, accepted world-wide. The references above to hundreds and thousands of million of years are not interpolated by me. They appear in Dr Snelling 2’s paper.
The problem is obvious - the two Drs A A Snelling BSc (Hons), PhD (with the same address as the Creation Science Foundation) publish articles in separate journals and never cite each other’s papers. Their views on earth history are diametrically opposed and quite incompatible.
One Dr Snelling is a young-earth creationist missionary who follows the CSF’s Statement of Faith to the letter. The other Dr Snelling writes scientific articles on rocks at least hundreds or thousand of millions of years old and openly contradicting the Statement of Faith. The CSF clearly has a credibility problem. Are they aware they have an apostate in their midst and have they informed their members?
Of course there may well be a simple explanation, eg that the two Drs Snelling are one and the same. Perhaps the Board of the CSF has given Andrew Snelling a special dispensation to break his Statement of Faith. Why would they do this? Well, every creation ‘scientist’ needs to gain scientific credibility by publishing papers in refereed scientific journals and books and the sort of nonsense Dr Snelling publishes in Creation Ex Nihilo is unlikely to be accepted in any credible scientific journal.
I think that both Dr Snelling and the CSF owe us all an explanation. WILL THE REAL DR ANDREW SNELLING PLEASE STAND UP?
http://www.noanswersingenesis.org.au/realsnelling.htm
“Interesting. Now maybe Scientist will actually look at all of the hairbrain atheist dogma, and show it for what it is....nothing but an anti-God propaganda scheme.”
Why would they? How it came to be is not necessarily relevent to the fact that it is.
True, but I somehow would like to see the propagandist held to acount. Total humiliation would be nice.
As I have always believed, it is the man-is-God Religion.
It started with all the “self-help” groups.
Preaching the religion of man is all powerful.
12 step program...nah God has nothing to do with your recovery. Man is God.
That is only an example of these atheist hullucinations.
Maybe you are to young for the “God is Dead” BS some of us were subjected to not so long ago.
Depends on how long ago. IIRC, it was in the 60’s.
No, sadly, I’m not too young.
I went to a seminar on this dufus in LaJolla CA in the 60’s. I told my friend on the way home..he is full of *hit, I believe in GOD. turns out 10 years later my friend annouced she was a Lesbian...Who knew?
Carl Jung and the Development of Contemporary Paganism
Vivianne Crowley, Department of Pastoral Studies, Heythrop College, University of London
Carl Gustav Jung (1875-1961), founder of analytical psychology, originated a system of Jungian analysis that has become one of the world’s most widely known psychotherapeutic schools. Early biographies of Jung were hagiographies poured from the pens of enthusiastic, devoted and grateful disciples. Professional biographers evaluated Jung more objectively and sometimes with little understanding of or sympathy with his aims and methods. Iconoclast Richard Noll reviles him as an ‘Aryan Christ’. Bookstore shelves groan under the weight of his eighteen volumes of Collected Works and secondary commentary. Many Jungian terms - extraversion, introversion, shadow, anima, animus, synchronicity - have entered intellectual and popular discourse.
s Jung has entered public consciousness not only as a psychiatrist turned psychotherapist but also as a cultural commentator and quasi-mystic. While Jung’s early writings were based on his psychiatric work, later work represents a sweep through the world’s major religious traditions and many of its esoteric ones. Hinduism, Buddhism, Taoism, Islam, Christianity, Gnosticism, alchemy and paranormal phenomena pass under Jung’s scrutinizing gaze and are dissected not for their religious or metaphysical truths, in which Jung professed himself uninterested, but for their psychological meaning: how could they help human beings live in contemporary society?
*They* who?
This is “defending religious freedom”??
Looks like some cool nature-based engineering to me...
Why do you use quaint, outmoded Biblical idiomatic expressions to expose Dr. Snellings' purported hypocrisy and intellectual and moral turpitude?
When you refer to the heart you are obviously not referring to the hollow, muscular organ that pumps blood through the body of a vertebrate animal by contracting and relaxing. But to what, then, are you referring? Are you referring to the repository of Dr. Snellings' deepest and sincerest feelings and beliefs? The vital center and source of his being, emotions, and sensibilities?
That would seem to be the case, but from an evolutionist standpoint, as far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a repository of one's deepest and sincerest feelings and beliefs, or any such thing as a vital center and source of one's being and sensibilities. These are all nothing but epiphenomenon of physico/chemical reactions that developed randomly over eons without any purpose, goal or meaning, resulting in among other things, vertebrate animals like Dr. Snelling.
So for you to presuppose that there is something wrong with certain physical processes and chemical reactions is incoherent from an evolutionary perspective. It doesn't make any sense to presuppose purpose where there is none. There is nothing wrong (or right for that matter) about physical processes that developed out of nothing but chance/necessity.
The bottom line is that for you to say anything that even begins to be coherent about the duplicity, hypocisy and overall general wickedness of Dr. Snellings' heart, it requires that you take on presuppositions that you abhor, making your criticism of Dr. Snelling about as futile, self-defeating and groundless as a complaint about the moral depravity of the central core or innermost physical part of a magma flow.
Exposing Dr. Snellings' purported moral depravity would, however, at least begin to make sense from a Biblical, Creationist presupposition:
Bible DictionaryHeart
According to the Bible, the heart is the centre not only of spiritual activity, but of all the operations of human life. "Heart" and "soul" are often used interchangeably (Deut. 6:5; 26:16; comp. Matt. 22:37; Mark 12:30, 33), but this is not generally the case. The heart is the "home of the personal life," and hence a man is designated, according to his heart, wise (1 Kings 3:12, etc.), pure (Ps. 24:4; Matt. 5:8, etc.), upright and righteous (Gen. 20:5, 6; Ps. 11:2; 78:72), pious and good (Luke 8:15), etc. In these and such passages the word "soul" could not be substituted for "heart." The heart is also the seat of the conscience (Rom. 2:15). It is naturally wicked (Gen. 8:21), and hence it contaminates the whole life and character (Matt. 12:34; 15:18; comp. Eccl. 8:11; Ps. 73:7). Hence the heart must be changed, regenerated (Ezek. 36:26; 11:19; Ps. 51:10-14), before a man can willingly obey God. The process of salvation begins in the heart by the believing reception of the testimony of God, while the rejection of that testimony hardens the heart (Ps. 95:8; Prov. 28:14; 2 Chr. 36:13). "Hardness of heart evidences itself by light views of sin; partial acknowledgment and confession of it; pride and conceit; ingratitude; unconcern about the word and ordinances of God; inattention to divine providences; stifling convictions of conscience; shunning reproof; presumption, and general ignorance of divine things."
You cannot consistently object to Dr. Snelling trying to have something both ways while trying to have it both ways yourself.
Cordially,
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