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To: curiosity
...So please point out where you get your information that in 1961 Obie's mom would have had to wait 5 years to apply for his naturalization and could apply on his behalf? (hint this is before 1995)

Title III, Chapter 2 of the Immigration and Nationality act of 1952, which was the law governing immigration an naturalization at the time.

Which particular section are you referring to? By the way its also referred to as the McCarren-Walter Act and became effective 12-24-52.

...First, how would Obie return to the USA? If he had a fraudulent Hawaii Birth Certificate he could return, if not how would he enter the US?

Under Title I, section 101 of the same act, any child of a US citizen is entitled to non-quota immigrant status. Under Title II section 203, conciliar officals, upon proof that the child in question is the offspring of a US citizen (i.e. upon showing mama Obama's passport and bambi's BC), are required to grant visas to such children.


Bottom line: it would have been very easy for mama Obama to bring Bambi back into the USA and to naturalize him without committing fraud.

Don't think so.

As to answer some of your other questions:

...If Obie jr was born in Kenya would Obie Sr even know mama fraudulently registered his birth in Hawaii?

Well, if Obie Sr. got into a custody dispute with mama Obama, and she produced a Hawaiian birth certificate, I think that would tip him off.

AH yes if they got into a dispute, and if they didn't? Did Obie Sr know Stanley took Obie jr to Washington State?

....Would you rather fight for your child with the child in Kenya (foreign to you) or in the United States?

Irrelevant, since we've already established that she did not need to committ fraud to allow him to enter the USA.

We did? So when did Obie Sr allow his son to leave Kenya? Are you familiar with the problems American wives have getting their children back to the US from Muslim countries?

...Tell me how a Hawaii court will accept a foreign birth certificate over a Hawaiian one?

Well, if the sole basis of the birth certificate is sworn testimony from grandma, and the presumed father disputes the validity of this testimony (and he would be the presumed father, since he was married to mama Obama at the time of bambi's birth), and further he can produce an official document to support his case, then it seems to me any court would take that very seriously.

Yeah presumed bigamous father is going to testify and get nailed for bigamy in Hawaii. Is he that stupid? He would be easily impeached.

....What category of visa would he be eligible for?

Nonquota immigrant visa.

CORRECT IR-2 child of US citizen.

...Would both parents have to sign his visa application?

There is nothing in the law requiring it.

Really? How about an application for naturalization?

...How long would it take to get the visa?

The law instructs consular officials to grant the visa upon proof of eligibility, so it seems that it would be pretty quick.

Have you ever dealt with the State Department, US Embassies overseas? Do you have any idea how long it would take?

...How long before he could become a citizen and what would he have to do to become a citizen?

5 years. The procedures for naturalizing children of US citizens were never particularly difficult.

Im still waiting for you to provide the applicable section of law that says that.

...Could he give up his US residence and travel to Indonesia? Would that affect his visa status and ability to naturalize? ...

He didn't travel to Indonesia until he was six, by which time he already would have been naturalized.

As above, still waiting for you to provide the law you state is applicable. And then we are to believe Soetoro would let his step son or adopted child become a US Citizen while planning on returning to Indonesia? A leap of faith IMO.

But even if he traveled abroad before then, there would be nothing to impede him getting naturalized. So long as he had a non-quota immigrant visa, he could enter and re-enter the US without restriction. So long as he did not interupt the 5 year period of residence, he would be eligible for naturalization at age 5.

Wrong. (hint) Residency is different for a LAPR or person Lawfully Admitted for Permanent Residency than to be Naturalized.

And even if he did interupt that period of residence, all he would have to do to get US citienship is reside within the United States for a period of 5 years before his 18th birthday, fill out some forms, take an oath, etc.

So he could naturalize before he is 18? Where is that in the law?

....All these things make it much simpler and give reason for mom to try and get him a fraudulent Hawaiian birth certificate, do they not?

Not when you consider the fact that by committing fraud, she would be risking a felony conviction.

So lying on her divorce and Obie Sr lying about his previous marriage isn't risking a felony conviction?

Why risk a felony conviction if you can relatively easily 1) obtain an immigrant visa for your child and 2) get him naturalized once he's lived in the US for 5 years?

Hehehehe, is Obies daddy the Kenyan Colonel going to naturalize?

418 posted on 12/10/2009 1:47:48 PM PST by rolling_stone (no more bailouts, the taxpayers are out of money!)
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To: rolling_stone
Which particular section are you referring to? By the way its also referred to as the McCarren-Walter Act and became effective 12-24-52

The complete cite is Title III, Chapter 2, section 313. My apologies for not specifying this earlier.

As to the rest of your post, as I see it, you are making two arguments:

1) Grandma Obama had an incentive to fraudulantly register bambi's birth in Hawaii so mama Obama could bring him home from Kenya.

2) By fraudulantly registering him in Hawaii, mama Obama would have made it easier to keep him in Hawaii in case she her marriage fell appart and daddy wanted to take Obie Jr. to Kenya.

I'll dispose of them one at a time.

Number 1:

I've already established that immigration law at the time made Obie Jr. eligible for a non-quota immigrant visa, and it would be very easy to get one for him. So there would be no legal impediment to mama Obama bringing him home without a Hawaiian birth certificate.

However, you seem to be arguing that Obie Sr. might pose a problem in that he might not allow mama Obama to bring him home.

This makes little sense to me for two reasons.

A: It seems highly unliely Obie Sr. would try to stop his son from returning to Hawaii. Obie Sr. was a student in Hawaii, and by all accounts was determined to finish his degree. He himself, therefore, would surely have been planning to return back to Hawaii if he were in fact in Kenya during the summer of 1961 (of course, there is no evidence he was in Kenya in 1961, but let's go with it for sake of argument). Why would he want to stop his son from returning to Hawaii with him? This makes no sense.

B: Even if for some completely irrational reason he wanted to stop his son from returning to Hawaii, I don't see how a fraudulantly obtained Hawaiian birth certificate would prevent him from doing so. Suppose mama Obama says, "I'm taking Jr. back to Hawaii," and Obie Sr. says "No." How exactly would the Hawaiian BC help mama? If Bambi was really born in Kenya, surely it would be relatively easy for Obie Sr. to prove in front of a Kenyan court that the Hawaiian birth certificate was fraudulant.

Now lets go to argument number 2.

You assert that mama Obama might have been worried that once they are back in Hawaii, Obie Sr. might want to dump her and to take their son back to Kenya. So she fraudulantly obtains a Hawaiian birth certificate, without his knowledge, to prevent this.

Here again your argument holds little water.

First of all, divorce courts generally give custody preference to the mother, and I know of no Hawaiian legal precedent or provision of family law under which the citizenship of the child would change that. Perhaps you can cite one.

Second of all, even if Jr's citizenship would have made difference in a custody battle, it would have been very easy for Obie Sr. to prove the US birth certificate was fraudulant if, in point of fact, Obie Jr. was born in Kenya.

So in the end your argument holds no water. There was no reason for either mama or grandma Obama to risk a felony conviction and fraudulantly register Jr.'s birth in Hawaii if he were in fact born in Kenya.

As to mama Obama risking a felony and committing fraud in the divorce papers, please elaborate. How, exactly did she commit fraud?

419 posted on 12/10/2009 3:02:46 PM PST by curiosity
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To: rolling_stone
The complete cite is Title III, Chapter 2, section 313.

Woops. Typo. That's section 316.

420 posted on 12/10/2009 3:12:47 PM PST by curiosity
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To: rolling_stone
Upon further reading, I realize that my case is even stronger.

Mama Obama would not have to wait 5 years to naturalize her son. She could have done it immediately upon her return to Hawaii. It's as clear as day in Title III, Chapt. 2, Section 322. Scroll down to page 84 (top-of-the-page numbering; bottom of the page says 86):

It's not the greatest of scans, but it's legible.

So I think I have totally refuted you.

1) Mama Obama could have easily and legally obtained an nonquota immigrant visa for her son, even if he were born in Kenya, which would have allowed her to take him back to Hawaii.

2)Immediately upon her return, she could have applied for his naturalized citizenship and he would have received it as soon as it was processed. There was very little immigration in those days, so there's no reason to expect it would have taken very long at all.

Ergo, she absolutely no motive for fraudulantly registering his birth in Hawaii.

So, given that we know his birth was registered in Hawaii, you birthers have no case, unless you birthers somehow miraculously forsaw that he might run for president.

421 posted on 12/10/2009 4:28:40 PM PST by curiosity
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