$500 Million in Sunken Treasure Returning to Spain (Lawyers beat treasure hunters)

Fox ^ | Dec. 23, 2009 | staff

[centurion316]

The other argument is that the cargo in this case was privately held and merely being transported aboard a naval vessel as freight. Admiralty courts have held that soverign immunity does not apply in such cases.

Of course, since Odyssey Marine won’t admit that the treasure comes from the Nuesta Senora de las Mercedes, then that line of argument is a little problematic.

The treasure almost certainly came from the Mercedes, which sunk when intercepted by British frigates. These frigates captured the other three treasure ships as they been ordered to do by the Admiralty. However, since Britain was not yet at war with Spain (war was declared shortly thereafter), the crews were denied their rightful prize money and the treasure from the captured vessels reverted to the British crown. Odyssey Marine can join those British Tars crying in their beer.

[tlb]

>>>However, since Britain was not yet at war with Spain (war was declared shortly thereafter), the crews were denied their rightful prize money and the treasure from the captured vessels reverted to the British crown.

CS Forrester wrote of this incident in one of his stories of Horatio Hornblower. In this version it was Captain Hornblower’s honorable decision to forego his opportunity for wealth as part of the prize-taking squadron that led to the British victory. Hornblower sailed into combat keeping Spanish reinforcements away but being over the horizon, would be ineligible for a share of the loot. Then of course, there was no prize money anyway as stated.

[centurion316]

Patrick Obrian puts Captain Jack Aubrey in command of one of the intercepting frigates as well, but relates how Aubrey and the other Captains are deprived of their prize money. The Naval Chronicle provides interesting contemporary accounts of this incident. Prize money was an important factor motivating both officers and foremast jacks to advance the cause of Britain and the Royal Navy.

[Travis McGee]

What utter BS. As if the Aztecs and Incas cheerfully signed over their rights.

One way to read this is govts vs. private operators. The govts are protecting each others’ interests, over those of ordinary people or private consortiums.

Utter BS. This is the movement toward global govt driving one more nail in the coffin of freedom.

[Travis McGee]

It’s not feasible to discover and salvage deep water wrecks like this in secret.

This ain’t guys with SCUBA tanks on a coral reef off of the Florida Keys.

[Travis McGee]

The next big find will be kept private. No press. F em!

Can't be done on major deep water finds. You could just as easily keep a private moon shot secret.

[b359]

That’s why I love this forum. I was frothing with anger when I read the article until I read your posts. I now understand the ruling. I may not agree, but understand. Thanks!

[aruanan]

Yeah, a recovered stolen car is returned to the car-jacker. Ha ha. Too bad they couldn't just sink it again and say, "Hey, now you try to find it. Oh, and we're contacting both the Mexican and Peruvian governments. The one of you three with the biggest finder's fee will be the luckiest."

[Travis McGee]

I like your thinking! (At least in this case!)

But I think the Spanish Navy (those pirates) put a destroyer next to the salvage ships some time ago, and have been “watching” them extremely closely ever since.

[Travis McGee]

I guess that means "Aztlan" has to go back to Spain, eh? What about the "Spanish Land Grants" in the Southwest?

This ruling is asinine. To start with, the Spanish were transporting STOLEN PROPERTY, so if it should "go back" to anybody, it sure shouldn't be the thieves!

By the same logic, we would have to untangle every disputed property case going back to Cro-Magnon's taking the caves from Neandertals.

This ruling is nothing more than a "government protection racket," putting the found treasure into government coffers, and keeping it away from private hands.

And without those private hands, the Spanish govt would not benefit by even one single piece of eight.

The Spanish stole the gold centuries ago, and they are stealing it again today.

And that's a pretty good record for "legal theft!"

[Lurker]

But I think the Spanish Navy (those pirates) put a destroyer next to the salvage ships some time ago, and have been “watching” them extremely closely ever since.

As another poster said; put it back where they found it and wish the Spanish Govt the very best of luck.

L

[Ronin]

Damn right!!!!

Hell, that is the only time a statute of limitations makes sense! I would say that property was abandoned. They didn’t go looking for it, they didn’t spend the time and money to recover it, why should they get it?

By careful twisting of this “Judge’s” ruling, you can make the claim that the gold actually belongs to Peru because the Spaniards stole it from the native peoples there and that half the gold in European vaults must be repatriated to the country of origin.

Stupid.

[calex59]

I always thought that if you found it in international waters it was salvage and the property of the finder. What happened to that law?

[centurion316]

Spain had already decided to enter the war against Britain and on the side of France. They were just waiting for the arrival of this treasure fleet before declaring. They knew that the Royal Navy would sweep the oceans clear of Spanish ships on declaration of war. British intelligence knew all of this and ordered the Royal Navy to intercept the treasure fleet. The British fired signal guns to have the Spanish ships heave to and were fired upon by the Spanish. The British returned fire and caused the Spanish ships to strike their colors. The Mercedes exploded and sunk, probably when a shot hit her magazine.

[centurion316]

I always thought that if you found it in international waters it was salvage and the property of the finder. What happened to that law?

That law does not apply to naval vessels, who possess soverign immunity and cannot be salvaged except by permission of the soverign state owning the vessel. Their is an exception for the private cargo that might be carried by naval vessels. That's what this suit is all about, and the judge seems to be ignoring the historic fact that most of the cargo was privately held and being carried as freight by the Spanish Navy.

[wardaddy]

The judge is following the precedence of fairly established law regarding maritime salvage of warships.

I doubt any other lower court judge would have found different.

If someone wishes to establish new law in this arena then it will likely be done through higher courts or treaties.

[wardaddy]

I'm sympathetic to the salvagers but until new law is agreed upon or established over this which most courts agree to, it will remain tough regarding warships unless that nation has ceased to exist or has repudiated that link to that era or entered a treaty making such claims null and void.

It gets really vexing....I wonder if modern Germany claims Nazi warships or even East German warships?

Could the Russians claim Soviet ships and so forth.

I have a feeling given the new technology at hand and the increased feasibility in such finds that we will see new law agreed upon at some conference in Holland that we will sign on to.

Just a guess.

[calex59]

This vessel was being used as a cargo ship and is therefore not granted immunity. The judge is wrong in this case. There have been precedents of this nature before and the ruling was if the ship in question was acting as a cargo ship at the time it sunk, it was not considered a war ship.

[stephenjohnbanker]

“This ruling is nothing more than a “government protection racket,” putting the found treasure into government coffers, and keeping it away from private hands.”

Yep. It also sounds a great deal like the Obama administration here.

[LoneRangerMassachusetts]

This will only encourage treasure hunters to just make off with the stuff and sell it on the black market. No use doing it by the book and getting screwed over for their efforts.

The black market brought down the Soviet Union, not Reagan. It will be the way to bring down Internationalist America.