Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Israel Rabbi Asks Pope to Halt Pius' Beatification
The New York Times (AP) ^ | January 12, 2010

Posted on 01/12/2010 4:05:13 PM PST by presidio9

Pope Benedict XVI should be welcomed when he visits Rome's main synagogue, but he should halt moves to beatify wartime pontiff Pius XII, criticized for not doing enough to stop the Holocaust, a former chief rabbi of Israel said Tuesday.

Israel Meir Lau, a Holocaust survivor and now chief rabbi of Tel Aviv, said Benedict's synagogue visit Sunday would be ''appreciated and blessed.'' But in an interview with Italy's Sky TG24 television, he said he was ''surprised'' by Benedict's decision last month to move the controversial World War II-era pope closer to sainthood.

Benedict sparked outrage among some Jewish groups by signing a decree on Pius' heroic virtues, paving the way for him to be beatified once a miracle attributed to his intercession is confirmed.

Some Jews and historians have argued that Pius, pope from 1939-1958, was largely silent on the Holocaust and should have done more to prevent the deaths of 6 million Jews at the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators.

The Vatican insists Pius used quiet diplomacy to try to save Jews and that speaking out more forcefully would have resulted in more deaths.

It said last month the decree on his heroic virtues wasn't so much a historical assessment of his pontificate as a confirmation that he had led a deeply Christian life.

In the past, Jewish leaders had asked the pope to put the beatification on hold until archives on Pius' pontificate are opened to outside scholars. The Vatican has said those archives won't be catalogued and ready until 2014 at the earliest.

In the interview broadcast Tuesday,

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Extended News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: piusxii
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-75 next last

1 posted on 01/12/2010 4:05:14 PM PST by presidio9
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: presidio9
It just never stops, does it?

These accusations have not only been disproved, they have been shown to be disinformation instigated by the Soviets and the East Germans.

But the haters like the NYT and Jewish leaders who should know better keep the lie alive.

2 posted on 01/12/2010 4:11:40 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

I think there is that (liberals hating Christians in general) and I think there is legitimate concern stemming from incomplete information that permits such rumors to exists.

The process of opening the archives that show what happened is in process; no time like the present to crack it open wide.


3 posted on 01/12/2010 4:14:55 PM PST by TheThirdRuffian (Nothing to see here. Move along.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: presidio9

What did they want him to do, send the Swiss guard after the Germans?

The Vatican was surrounded, and if they haven’t noticed, it’s a nation smaller than some celebrity estates!

The guy did what he could with what he had.


4 posted on 01/12/2010 4:17:46 PM PST by VanDeKoik (Iran doesnt have a 2nd admendment. Ya see how that turned out?)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

If there’s no truth to it, then the Vatican should have gotten these archives catalogued and opened to outside scholars a long time ago. Instead they’re saying they just can’t possibly get it done until 2014 — 56 YEARS after Pius’ death. A heck of a lot of redacting and disappearing can be done in 56 years.


5 posted on 01/12/2010 4:20:56 PM PST by GovernmentShrinker
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: VanDeKoik
The guy did what he could with what he had.

He was on the same level as Churchill, Roosevelt and yeah, Hitler. He had a world audience. He could have spoken louder and more frequently. Sorry, I'm a Catholic and greatly respect our current Pope. But I'm not enough of a sheep to buy everything the Vatican puts out. Not all our Popes were perfect. In this case, I believe much more info is needed. That doesn't make me a hater. It makes me a thinker.

6 posted on 01/12/2010 4:24:50 PM PST by blu (Graffiti the world, I've seen the writing on the wall...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother
Some Jews and historians have argued that Pius, pope from 1939-1958, was largely silent on the Holocaust and should have done more to prevent the deaths of 6 million Jews at the hands of the Nazis and their collaborators.

We never hear these armchair quarterbacks lay out a realistic plan for what Pope Pius XII might have done differently. Instead they ignore the fact that Pius is credited with SAVING a million Jews. Or the fact that the top two Jewish minds from that period (Albery Einstein and Golda Meir) single him out for his work. The people who have a problem with Pius XII sound to me like they have deeper problems with Catholicism.

7 posted on 01/12/2010 4:24:51 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: blu

wasn’t it Stalin who asked “how many divisions does the Pope have?”

how can you compare the Vatican, surrounded as it was, militarily risible, to the almost infinite resources of England and the US???

YOurs are not the words of a conservative Catholic


8 posted on 01/12/2010 4:31:24 PM PST by gaslucas1
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: GovernmentShrinker; AnAmericanMother; Protagoras
If there’s no truth to it, then the Vatican should have gotten these archives catalogued and opened to outside scholars a long time ago. Instead they’re saying they just can’t possibly get it done until 2014 — 56 YEARS after Pius’ death. A heck of a lot of redacting and disappearing can be done in 56 years.

The Vatican doesn't ever have to open its archives if it doesn't want to. It is subject to no earthly authority. The suggestion that the Catholic Church would Beatify a monster and hide the proof flies in the face of all that the Church has stood for. It remains the most important pro-God, pro-charity, pro-family, pro-life, and pro-virtue organization on the planet. And you don't have to be a Catholic, or even a Christian to understand that indisputable FACT. The Church gains nothing in Beatifying a Nazi collaborater, and only God can make a mortal a saint. So what you are essentially charging is that the Catholic Church is a corrupt and thoroughly evil organization. The facts at large, and the facts in this particular case fly in the face of your accusation. Even if I weren't Catholic, I would think to my self "God help the human race" if that were the case.

9 posted on 01/12/2010 4:34:35 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: blu
Sorry, I'm a Catholic and greatly respect our current Pope. But I'm not enough of a sheep to buy everything the Vatican puts out.

What a load of crap.

10 posted on 01/12/2010 4:36:04 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: blu

You’re a Catholic? Sorry, never seen you on any of the Catholic threads.

If you bothered to read up on this, you would certainly find it was a lie.

You want the Pope to have spoken out? Actually, he did, before Hitler was installed into power, in the encyclical Mit Brenende Sorge. But it would not have been helpful to have attacked Hitler directly. The Nazis were in Rome, and when some of the Bishops did speak out, Hitler merely responded by shipping more Catholics as well as Jews to the death camps.

It had to be done clandestinely. And the Pope did plenty. It’s not the real, religious Jews who keep bringing up this nonsense. It’s the leftist, self-hating Jews.


11 posted on 01/12/2010 4:45:32 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: blu

You need to go to confession.


12 posted on 01/12/2010 4:51:49 PM PST by Gapplega
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: gaslucas1
YOurs are not the words of a conservative Catholic

And aren't I glad that you're not the judge of me! Please do tell me what a "conservative Catholic" is supposed to sound like. How's that whole Vatican II think workin' out for ya? You speak militarily, I speak morally.

13 posted on 01/12/2010 5:00:31 PM PST by blu (Graffiti the world, I've seen the writing on the wall...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: presidio9; AnAmericanMother; TheThirdRuffian; VanDeKoik; GovernmentShrinker; blu; gaslucas1; ...
Could Jewish leaders have done more to prevent the Christian massacres by the Roman Empire? This topic needs to be researched further and it appears Jewish officials are stonewalling to save face and not coming forward with all the facts. Until we can be sure how much their "silence" resulted in the death of Christians, we must strongly oppose any effort to glorify Jewish rabbis from that time period. Any attempt to praise Jewish rabbis from that era is a slap in the face to descendants of dead Christians. Some estimates have placed the Christian death toll as high as 100,000 people during that period. Why did Nero's rabbis not speak out against those atrocities?

< /sarcasm>

14 posted on 01/12/2010 5:01:08 PM PST by BillyBoy (Impeach Obama? Yes We Can!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

It’s none of their damn business what the Church does.

I asked the Jews not to vote for zer0, guess what they told me?


15 posted on 01/12/2010 5:02:27 PM PST by reefdiver ("Let His day's be few And another takes His office")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 2 | View Replies]

To: blu; VanDeKoik
There was a quite detailed article about Pope Pius XII's WWII-era activities here in Free Republic a while back.

What I would especially like to point out to honestly interested parties is this:

Think of all the institutions in 1930's-40's Germany who could have exerted themselves to save Jews from the Hitler regime: Universities and other schools, churches, labor unions, business and professional organizations, the Red Cross and other humanitarian groups, etc.

According to Jewish historian and scholar Pinchas Lapide ("Three Popes and the Jews,") the Catholic Church, at Pope Pius XII's urging and with some Vatican coordination, saved 800,000 Jews by sheltering them in churches, convents, orphanages and other Catholic institutions, and by issuing fake Baptismal certificates and helping transport them out out zones of Nazi occupation. Both the Pope's summer residence at Castelgandalfo and the buildings of the Vatican itself were used as sanctuaries for hunted Jews.

Lapide, an Israeli who has researched extensively on this subject, says the Catholic Church saved more Jewish lives than all the other institutions in Europe put together.

Yet Pius XII's reputation has been relentlessly trashed since the 1962 debut of a work of theatrical fiction by East German Communist Rolf Hochhuth, "The Deputy," which portrayed Pius XII --- in a kind of ironic and horrible "blood Libel"---as a kind of crypto-Nazi at worst, or a coward at best.

I am grateful to all those historians, Catholic and Jewish and of any religious or secular persuasion, who have labored to set the record straight.

16 posted on 01/12/2010 5:04:49 PM PST by Mrs. Don-o ("During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act. " George Orwell)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: presidio9

Hey Meir Lau go suck eggs. If you choose to believe and advance the false witness against this saintly man then you are not better than the rest of the yim yams serving as useful idiots for the lord of this world.


17 posted on 01/12/2010 5:07:53 PM PST by big'ol_freeper ("Anyone pushing Romney must love socialism...Piss on Romney and his enablers!!" ~ Jim Robinson)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: presidio9

he should have at least excommunicated Hitler. No sainthood for Pius.


18 posted on 01/12/2010 5:15:12 PM PST by Karliner (Things are more like they are now than they have ever been before. DDE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Karliner
he should have at least excommunicated Hitler. No sainthood for Pius.

I don't get it.

19 posted on 01/12/2010 5:17:09 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: blu
It makes me a thinker.

An ill-informed one.

860,000

20 posted on 01/12/2010 5:18:38 PM PST by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: presidio9

Has he spoken out against the Democrat beatification of FDR?


21 posted on 01/12/2010 5:24:07 PM PST by Mannaggia l'America
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: presidio9

Well, let me put it another way. If he didn’t even excommunicate Hitler from the Catholic Church and Hitler is still Catholic then his alleged sainthood is slightly tainted by just doing nothing. Heck, he lived THROUGH what Hitler did to millions and no excommunication.


22 posted on 01/12/2010 5:24:39 PM PST by Karliner (Things are more like they are now than they have ever been before. DDE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 19 | View Replies]

To: Karliner
Well, let me put it another way. If he didn’t even excommunicate Hitler from the Catholic Church and Hitler is still Catholic then his alleged sainthood is slightly tainted by just doing nothing. Heck, he lived THROUGH what Hitler did to millions and no excommunication.

This is one of the lies that people who are insecure about their own religious convictions spread about Hitler and attempt of damage the Catholic Church. You need to get your facts straight. Adolph Hitler's Catholic mother had him baptized, like every other child in Catholic Austria. According to eyewitness accounts Hitler rebelled against Catholicism at a very young age, refusing Communion, and the Sacrament of Reconciliation. When he left home he ended all involvement with the Church and never retured. He was never a willing paricipant. If he could have ever been considered a member of the Catholic Church, he had excommunicated himself as a teenager. If he had portrayed himself in later life as a Catholic for political purposes, perhaps there would have been a need to officially excommunicate him. But he was't a Catholic, so what would be the point? He was a stated athiest who persecuted the Church in Germany and Eastern Europe.

23 posted on 01/12/2010 5:46:45 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: reefdiver
I asked the Jews not to vote for zer0, guess what they told me?

That's my new short-answer to this one. I thought about making it my tagline.

24 posted on 01/12/2010 6:02:06 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: presidio9

Presidio, the fact that Hitler was baptized a Catholic means he died a Catholic. Unless he converted to another religion, mere un-participation in his faith made him no less a Catholic than any other cradle Catholic. (I am not using this to sway the discussion about whether he should have been excommunicated or not).

It irks me to no end that whenever we have this discussion, those of us who think Pius could have done more are called not conservative Catholics. Just as with the Presidency, I respect the office, but not always the man who sits there. Not all our Popes have been saintly.

I did a lot of research on this topic a number of years ago (pre-internet, fact checked, non-fiction reference books), and decided, based upon MY research, that Pius could have done more. That is not to say that he shouldn’t be made a saint, we all know that is an earthly distinction which the Big Guy has the final say on.

I must say it is highly insulting to be told I’m not Catholic enough if I disagree-which I am not attributing specifically to you. It is so insulting, I’m thinking of breaking out my tr-cornered metal ruler and going after some hands! How’s that for Catholic for you? (again, not you specifically.) I am not at all insecure about my Catholic convictions, I am quite comfortable with them. So comfortable, in fact, that I can handle criticism of the Church without resorting to name calling and faith questioning.


25 posted on 01/12/2010 6:27:37 PM PST by blu (Graffiti the world, I've seen the writing on the wall...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: Gapplega

Judge not, lest ye be judged.


26 posted on 01/12/2010 6:30:37 PM PST by blu (Graffiti the world, I've seen the writing on the wall...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 12 | View Replies]

To: presidio9
Dear presidio9,

Actually, I read on FR here recently that the German Catholic bishops actually excommunicated the leadership of the Nazi party in 1931. That would include Hitler.

I don't have a link or anything. Perhaps another poster reading can come up with an appropriate source.

In any event, having already been excommunicated long before the beginning of WWII or the Holocaust, what was Pope Pius XII to do with Hitler? Excommunicate him twice?

Is that like someone being executed twice because he murdered more than one person?

I wonder how that works.


sitetest

27 posted on 01/12/2010 6:42:47 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 23 | View Replies]

To: blu
Presidio, the fact that Hitler was baptized a Catholic means he died a Catholic. Unless he converted to another religion, mere un-participation in his faith made him no less a Catholic than any other cradle Catholic. (I am not using this to sway the discussion about whether he should have been excommunicated or not).

I'm guessing that this is why other people on this thread are calling you out when you present yourself as a Catholic. You are confused about a few things. Catholicism is not a race or ethnicity. Anyone can stop being a Catholic at any time.

In order to be a member of the Catholic Church, you must be baptized. Hitler was. You must be Confirmed. There are conflicting accounts here, but let's say he was. He began adulthood as a Catholic. However, Catholics are required to attend Mass at least weekly and on Holy Days. At that Mass, they will confess their sins, profess their faith, and receive the Sacrament of Communion. Hitler obviously did not do this, and chose not to do this. He therefore ceased to be in Communion with the Catholic faith. That is the same thing as excommunication. Yes, an individual can do that on his own. Catholics are also obligated to receive the Sacrament of Reconciliation regularly, which he also did not do. Finally, the Church stresses a Catholic's obligation to respect the sanctity life. We know how he did with that one. It is a convention of the liberal media that a person who is baptized is Catholic for life. It is convenient to use this construction when describing "Catholic" politicians who fight for more abortions, even though the Church has made it very clear that you can't be Catholic and pro-choice. "Membership" into the Catholic faith represents a communion with the Church, which can't exist unless that faith is being practiced on a daily basis. Hitler wasn't the slightest bit Catholic. Period. He wasn't even pretending to be, because he had rejected that faith at an early age. Don't argue this one further. You are 100% wrong.

28 posted on 01/12/2010 6:54:21 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 25 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
I wonder how that works.

The only thing excommunication really means is that you are no longer eligible to receive the sacraments. There are people who have been excommunicated who continue to go to Church every day.

29 posted on 01/12/2010 6:56:22 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Karliner
Well, let me put it another way. If he didn’t even excommunicate Hitler from the Catholic Church and Hitler is still Catholic then his alleged sainthood is slightly tainted by just doing nothing. Heck, he lived THROUGH what Hitler did to millions and no excommunication.

Read the whole thread. Hitler was not still a Catholic.

30 posted on 01/12/2010 6:57:24 PM PST by presidio9 (Islam is as Islam does)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: presidio9
Dear presidio9,

I know how excommunication works.

When I said, “I wonder how that works.” I was referring to the fact that Hitler was, along with all the other Nazi leaders, excommunicated in 1931.

Thus, how exactly would Pope Pius XII, who became pope in 1939, excommunicate him again?

Then I made a joke, which obviously fell flat - is that like executing someone twice because he committed more than one murder?

Tough room. ;-)


sitetest

31 posted on 01/12/2010 7:00:21 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 29 | View Replies]

To: GovernmentShrinker
They are running a church and numerous charities - cataloguing the archives is a part time job.

They rushed through a lot of documents concerning Pius XII - it didn't make any difference.

Too many people are way too invested in sliming the Church and Pius XII.

And the idea that a bureaucracy as convoluted as the Vatican could 'disappear' a bunch of documents is nonsense. If you've never worked for a large corporate office or a government department in records, you may not understand how glaring a redaction or a gap appears. Any lawyer worth his salt (I was a trial lawyer and did regular document productions and inspections for 20 years) could immediately discern if documents had been destroyed.

32 posted on 01/12/2010 7:44:59 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: blu
He could have spoken louder and more frequently.

"Mit brennender Sorge" wasn't loud enough - authored by then-Cardinal Pacelli and read from the pulpit of every German church on Palm Sunday, 1937? His radio addresses condemning Hitler weren't enough? His 1941 and 1942 Christmas addresses, translated and published in the New York Times, weren't enough?

Even the New York Times praised Pius XII: "This Christmas [1942] more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent..."

Albert Einstein said:

Being a lover of freedom, when the revolution came in Germany, I looked to the universities to defend it, knowing that they had always boasted of their devotion to the cause of truth; but, no, the universities immediately were silenced. Then I looked to the great editors of the newspapers whose flaming editorials in days gone by had proclaimed their love of freedom; but they, like the universities, were silenced in a few short weeks...

Only the Church stood squarely across the path of Hitler's campaign for suppressing truth. I never had any special interest in the Church before, but now I feel a great affection and admiration because the Church alone has had the courage and persistence to stand for intellectual truth and moral freedom. I am forced thus to confess that what I once despised I now praise unreservedly.

And Pius XII didn't just talk - he acted to save hundreds of thousands of Jews. He even melted down sacramental vessels for gold to bribe the local Nazi authorities with.

Have you read any of the many books (there are five or six) which are based on original documents and set the record straight?

Have you read what Sir Martin Gilbert, a leading historian of WWII (and a Jew) has to say about this whole manufactured controversy? Or the nasty words he had for John Cornwell, a lapsed Catholic and anti-Catholic crusader (and author of the slanderous Hitler's Pope)?

If not, that doesn't make you a 'thinker' as you claim. You have to have some material to work with, otherwise you're just casually repeating slander and maligning a good man.

33 posted on 01/12/2010 7:57:09 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 6 | View Replies]

To: presidio9
Hitler was Catholic by birth. He even became an altar boy. I read the little article twice now. Granted the Catholic church might wait until all holocaust victims are dead but I'm still wondering why the catholic church would make pope Pius a saint. What was his "miracle?" What did he do besides being a pope in one of the most if not the most bloody times on the planet?

Am I off track presidio9? If so, bring me back on track and tell me where I've strayed. I'll read, listen and learn.

34 posted on 01/12/2010 7:59:15 PM PST by Karliner (Things are more like they are now than they have ever been before. DDE)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 30 | View Replies]

To: blu
A conservative Catholic does not slander his spiritual leaders. He does not calumniate, nor condemn without just cause.

If you haven't read up on this controversy (which has been percolating around since Cornwell's book was published in 1999) then you can't be a very engaged Catholic. It made a lot more noise than that silly Dan Brown book. It made so much noise that it attracted my attention, and I was a flippin' Episcopalian at the time. I researched the issue thoroughly, and it was one of the factors in my conversion.

If you want to be taken seriously as a "conservative Catholic", you need to do some reading.

35 posted on 01/12/2010 8:01:16 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 13 | View Replies]

To: Karliner
Hitler rejected Catholicism as a teenager and as an adult condemned Christianity in general as a "weak, gutter Jewish religion".

Not only that, he created his own "German Church" that was mostly Nordic paganism. He was a believer in the occult and all sorts of Satanic nonsense.

He was no more Catholic than my cat.

36 posted on 01/12/2010 8:04:38 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
The bishop of Mainz, Germany, excommunicated every Catholic member of the Nazi party in his diocese. He banned uniformed groups from entering churches and forbade Nazis from taking part in funerals and other services. The Oct. 11, 1930, issue of the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano said, "Belonging to the National Socialist Party of Hitler is irreconcilable with Catholic conscience." In February 1931, the German bishops meeting in conferences in Fulda and Freising supported the action of the bishop of Mainz, but limited the excommunications to Nazi leaders and activists. They issued pastoral letters informing the faithful, as well as letters of guidance for German clergy. Hitler's Rise to Power Dennis Barton, pages 8 and 9.
37 posted on 01/12/2010 8:07:01 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Karliner
Found the reference. The German bishops excommunicated all the Nazi party leaders in February 1931.

Hitler wasn't a Catholic (he was baptized by his parents, and they made him be an altar boy, but there's no record of him ever being confirmed and he quit going to Mass as a teenager), but he would fall under that excommunication even if he still had been one at the time.

38 posted on 01/12/2010 8:09:43 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

To: presidio9
Why in the sam hill are Orthodox Jews engaging in this ecumenical nonsense??? Jews have the Torah and non-Jews are either observant Noachides or else (objectively) practicing false and forbidden religions. What is there to talk about?

The world is gone crazy a hundred times over!

I notice that Fundamentalist Protestants, however philo-Semitic they are, don't insist on imposing themselves on Orthodox Jewish congregations in any capacity other than as quiet guests.

39 posted on 01/12/2010 8:11:36 PM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Koh 'amar HaShem, "Shallach `ammi, veya`avduni!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

Thanks.


40 posted on 01/12/2010 8:16:18 PM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 37 | View Replies]

To: sitetest
No problem!

We're in my area of expertise here - my undergraduate degree is in history, with a concentration in military history, and I took 10 years of German (I'm not as fluent as I used to be - rusty - but I can still read with no problem.)

I figured out a long time ago that this whole 'controversy' is one of the biggest disinformation campaigns ever to come down the pike - with the Russians and East Germans at the back of it and every liberal/communist fellow traveller booming it for all they're worth (after all the further to the left you are, the more you hate the Church - the Church being the last large organization standing against the left's goals).

41 posted on 01/12/2010 8:34:46 PM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 40 | View Replies]

To: Zionist Conspirator
I notice that Fundamentalist Protestants, however philo-Semitic they are, don't insist on imposing themselves on Orthodox Jewish congregations in any capacity other than as quiet guests.

Well, other than their violent, virulent anti-Catholic screeds throughout the audible and radio spectra, that is...

42 posted on 01/12/2010 10:13:45 PM PST by Don W (I only keep certain folks' numbers in my 'phone so I know NOT to answer when they call)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 39 | View Replies]

To: Don W
Reading all posts with interest. Wasn't Edith Stein shipped off to Auschwitz because Hitler was furious about Catholic church pronouncements against his activities, and he decided in response to kill more Jews?

In other words, the more you pushed the Nazi establishment, the harder they came down on dissenters to make an example.

43 posted on 01/12/2010 11:51:00 PM PST by Ciexyz
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: presidio9
That's a much better answer than mine.

I was looking at the practical and legal problems with destroying a bunch of documents -- if a department issues a report on the first Monday of every month for 10 years, then all of a sudden for 6 months, no reports, then all the lawyers get really interested. You can't hope to hide it. Summary judgment for spoliation of evidence, sanctions, disbarment and jail time to follow.

You were looking at the big picture, and you're absolutely right. If the Church would do such a thing - deliberately hide and destroy evidence in order to canonize a Nazi - it would be the most evil organization on the face of the earth.

44 posted on 01/13/2010 6:02:35 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: BillyBoy

LOL!


45 posted on 01/13/2010 6:09:39 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 14 | View Replies]

To: Don W
I notice that Fundamentalist Protestants, however philo-Semitic they are, don't insist on imposing themselves on Orthodox Jewish congregations in any capacity other than as quiet guests.

Well, other than their violent, virulent anti-Catholic screeds throughout the audible and radio spectra, that is...

Why do Catholics fear virulent screeds more than they do ecumenism? At least the Fundamentalists aren't coming over to your churches and demanding that the two religions be blended.

46 posted on 01/13/2010 8:00:55 AM PST by Zionist Conspirator (Koh 'amar HaShem, "Shallach `ammi, veya`avduni!")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 42 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother

Ahhh...there’s no better Catholic than a converted Catholic. gotcha.


47 posted on 01/13/2010 8:13:41 AM PST by blu (Graffiti the world, I've seen the writing on the wall...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 35 | View Replies]

To: blu
"But, Mrs. Luce . . . the Pope is already Catholic!"

But think about it. Converts have considered the issues seriously -- many (by no means all!) cradle Catholics are just going with the flow, and have no idea what treasures they have.

And in this case, the slanderous attacks on Pius XII bothered me long before I was a Catholic, and there are old posts right here on FR to prove it. I'm an old rat in the barn courthouse lawyer, and I know a fraud when I see one.

48 posted on 01/13/2010 8:26:31 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]

To: AnAmericanMother
Dear AnAmericanMother,

I’ve been told that sometimes cradle Catholics are antagonistic toward converts.

Personally, I love Catholic converts. My late father-in-law was a convert, and a very good Catholic man. I know many converts at church. Heck, I think my parish would fall apart if not for the efforts of those who came to Catholic faith in adulthood.

Thanks for all you do.


sitetest

49 posted on 01/13/2010 8:35:19 AM PST by sitetest (If Roe is not overturned, no unborn child will ever be protected in law.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 48 | View Replies]

To: blu
But your response begs the question -- and doesn't answer mine:

What more could the Pope have done?

Contrary to your assertion, he spoke out over and over again, not just locally, but internationally -- not only to every Catholic in every church in Germany, but to the world. I gave you multiple examples - from biased Catholic sources like the New York Times, no less.

You're the one who claimed he didn't speak out enough. So explain what you think he should have done, or retract your statement.

50 posted on 01/13/2010 8:38:03 AM PST by AnAmericanMother (Ministrix of ye Chasse, TTGC Ladies' Auxiliary (recess appointment))
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 47 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first 1-5051-75 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson