Posted on 02/16/2010 10:19:38 AM PST by FredJake
>>My point is this, if some two people start having consenting sex and then one suddenly says ‘no’ then that does NOT make it non-consensual... at that point, whether or not the other stops is irrelevant to whether the act was consensual because IT WAS.
>>
>>Just like a credit card means agreeing to an “I will pay at such and such date” buying things and then deciding that you don’t want them does NOT absolve you from having to pay for them. (Though there are stores and such with return policies that does not refute my argument.)
>
>So the woman has a change of heart and says “No, stop, I don’t want to do this. Please get off of me” and the man continues to have sex with her, he’s NOT raping her?
We’re defining rape as non-consensual sex, right? So, if it started out as consensual how can it be wholly non-consensual? You are completely ignoring the premise I set up.
>Riiiight. Sorry, but “Please get off of me” means “Please get off of me”.
I didn’t say it did, did I?
>Not “I’m not happy with this but go ahead anyway.”
Ah, now we’re getting to your argument. You’re saying that the agreements, be they verbal and/or action, of the past have NO relevance to the present; I disagree with that premise.
>And to compare a woman who did not want to have sex and was eventually raped to a credit card purchase?
Note that you are changing the premise when you say “who did not want to have sex,” I very clearly stated that the condition was one in which they DID want, and therefore consented to, having sex.
Returning to the case which I present would it be better to charge the ‘rapee’ with fraud? {After all isn’t that what we call it when something is agreed/promised and not-delivered?}
How is my analogy flawed? Isn’t a ‘Yes’ to “Let’s have sex.” an agreement to do the act? Precisely, isn’t it an agreement to FINISH the act implicitly? Therefore, how is it different from promising a future pay-in-full on a credit card?
I for one would never want to have to sit on a jury for a post-sexual revolution rape case
There are degrees and felony levels where the crime can be aggravated. I am not an attorney.
The rape begins once she removes her consent.
Even wrestlers can tap out.
[snip]
>He does not get to stay as long as he likes just because you invited him in. You have the right to tell anyone to leave your home at any time. They are required by law to leave when asked.
>
>Sex is like that. Just because she says once does not cover the whole event, and just because she says ‘no’ half way through does not retroactively change things before that point. But, the man does not have the right to over stay his welcome. She CAN break it off at any time. ANY time. Because it is her her right as a human.
It is known that in the act of sex there is a discharge from the male that neutralizes/normalizes the woman’s ph level so to be more conductive of sperm surviving; this discharge does contain contain a few sperm.
Hm, ok, let me present to you this scenario:
- A man and woman are having sex.
- The aforementioned discharge occurs.
- The woman changes her mind and tells the guy to leave.
- The man complies and that’s the end of the story...
- Until it is revealed that she became pregnant from that discharge.
- she then takes the man to court for rape:
NOTE:
The woman has, as physical evidence, the baby.
The only witnesses are these two and it is a word-against-word argument.
Should the man be convicted of rape? _IS_ the man guilty of rape?
“Sex is not a instant event.”
“Well, Your Honor, I tried to say ‘no,’ but it was over so fast...”
This is an article that speaks more to what OV thinks and no where in the article yesterday did he really get this in depth with his opinion.
That is why, and there are many who would have missed it yesterday. Look at the comments, obviously it is still a hot topic.
“Even wrestlers can tap out”
This isn’t a game where we can arbitrarily try and metaphorize is the issue. We are talking about criminalizing men as rapists, sex criminals after they have had sex with a woman.
See post http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2452628/posts?page=40#40
It looks the same to me.
It is the right of either party involved to change their minds and if the other party decides to disregard that demand they have ultimately decided that their needs and desires are superior to their partner’s basic human rights.
Maybe you can defend a man’s refusal to stop (lack of self control, raging hormones, complete disregard for human beings...whatever exactly happens in a man’s mind) but I can’t.
So let’s set something up with your scenario.
Two people consent to sex. Three minutes into it, the woman is in pain, uncomfortable, struck with some morals...whatever. She tells the man to stop, he refuses. She tries to get up and leave, but can’t move under a man’s strength, or worse, he’s holding her down.
That’s not rape? Under your scenario it wouldn’t be.
So yes, that is my argument. Sex isn’t a lock solid contract...it can be broken, especially if one person feels demands it to stop.
I’m not talking about women who feel guilty afterwards or falsely cry rape because they want to get back at an ex-boyfriend. Those women disgust me. However, like I said first, if one party refuses to oblige the other party’s request, at best it’s vile and disrespectful...at worst it’s definately rape.
“Let me get this straight. No always means no, but yes does not always mean yes?”
I remember reading in the Playboy Advisor years ago, that a guy should proceed as if the answer is ‘yes’ unless and until she says ‘no.’
I told both of my daughters, if you are ever raped, you call the police and do everything you can to get the perp convicted before your Daddy has a chance to kill the S.O.B.
I also told them that if they go to a boys room, strip their own clothes off, get INTO the bed and then right before that boy sticks it in her, they change their mind...I will NOT support them in any way, shape or form. That kind of behavior aptly answers the question; “What is worse than a tease?”
What about in a situation where it is the wife saying 'no'?
In other words, marital rape.
“Very common also is the woman who never actually said no, feels guilty a few days later,,,and the womens groups tell them at college that their bad feelings mean it was against their will. The police get called. Date rape is about the same as autism spectrum,,, a wide wide range of things get wrongly rounded up into that label.”
This is why there’s this backlash against it.
“No, because he complied with her request. End of story.”
Given that her request was that he “leave” rather than “stop” should he be charged with rape or trespassing if he stayed?
We don’t disagree that morally the best situation is to abstain until marriage.
I thought my metaphor more apt, yours was regarding a credit card purchase not another human being.
That said at what point, exactly, can a woman say no to sex?
“I thought my metaphor more apt, yours was regarding a credit card purchase not another human being.”
I didn’t say anything about a credit card. You must keep track of different posters!
“That said at what point, exactly, can a woman say no to sex?”
I don’t know. But it’s definitely some point before she has taken her knickers off for to be having the sex.
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