Posted on 02/25/2010 9:28:21 AM PST by Never A Dull Moment
The Hebrew from the Tanakh is not "Jews" but Y'hudim, or "Judeans."
Nice try, but it is perilous to take things too literally when working from a translation.
Get ready to go Home soon...America is not going to last long with this pompus ass in the WH. He is defying God, and he says he is a Christian? HA!
I don't have to work from a translation. I am fluent in Hebrew.
So from Megillat Esther:
ה אִישׁ יְהוּדִי, הָיָה בְּשׁוּשַׁן הַבִּירָה; וּשְׁמוֹ מָרְדֳּכַי, בֶּן יָאִיר בֶּן-שִׁמְעִי בֶּן-קִישׁ--אִישׁ יְמִינִי.
So here when the word יְהוּדִ is used for Mordechai who at the end of the Pasuk is called אִישׁ יְמִינִי , from the tribe of Benjamin, what is the meaning of "Y'hudi" there?
At the time we are talking about, there was no such word as Jew. So a translation of it didn't exist. The word Y'hudi meant "Judean."
So here when the word יְהוּדִ is used for Mordechai who at the end of the Pasuk is called אִישׁ יְמִינִי , from the tribe of Benjamin, what is the meaning of "Y'hudi" there?
I suggest you don't go there because as far as the archaeological record is concerned, much if not all of the Book of Esther is apocryphal (frankly, I think the books of Maccabees are more solidly grounded in history than Esther, especially considering the number of differences in early versions). In all the tablets found the digs at Susa, there is no record of a "Jewish" Queen Esther. The Book of Esther is the one part of the cannon that has not been found at Qumran. So the use of the term in the verse is at least a translation and therefore contemporary to a later date than you imply.
So here when the word יְהוּדִ is used for Mordechai who at the end of the Pasuk is called אִישׁ יְמִינִי , from the tribe of Benjamin, what is the meaning of "Y'hudi" there?
I would say that it means that he was from the nation or region of Y'hudah. By that time the tribe of Binyamin had pretty much been adsorbed.
In the mean time, what does any of this have to do with the time of the Partiarchs?
As I suggested earlier -You SHOULD not go there. Did anyone find God in the archaelogical record?
So far in this thread you have decided that the name we call ourselves is incorrect. Instead you choose to call us by the name our hated conquerer called us. You say that our sacred text is not authentic two days before the holiday we have celebrated for 2500 year and will continue to celebrate after the coming of the Messiah. You tell us that Mordechai was not from the tribe of Benjamin which you incorrectly assert was adsorbed.
You imply that the Arabs have as much claim to the Maarat Hamachpelah as Jews do since you claim they are Ishmaelites descended from Abraham.
Also, you never answered my twice asked proof of that fact. Is it in the archaelogic record that Arabs are Ishmaelites? Where?
I ask you to show respect for my religion.
The Torah is doing pretty well there. The Book of Esther is not.
So far in this thread you have decided that the name we call ourselves is incorrect.
No, I have said that the name is modern:
1125–75; ME jewe, giu, gyu, ju < OF juiu, juieu, gyu < LL judēus, L jūdaeus < Gk ioudaîos < Aram yehūdāi < Heb Yəhūdhī, deriv. of Yəhūdhāh Judah;
Instead you choose to call us by the name our hated conquerer called us.
And you choose to call yourself by a derivative of that same word. I said that "Judean" is adjective term used at that time that led to the term "Jew" we (and you) use today. It is simply a historical fact.
You say that our sacred text is not authentic two days before the holiday we have celebrated for 2500 year and will continue to celebrate after the coming of the Messiah.
Please provide proof documenting that history. The bulk of evidence on the origins of the Book of Esther, including its history of alterations and particularly its absence from Qumran, suggests that the Book of Esther is apocryphal. It is the only book in the Jewish cannon about which I would say that.
You tell us that Mordechai was not from the tribe of Benjamin which you incorrectly assert was adsorbed.
I did not say that. You have repeatedly chosen to misconstrue what I said. The distinction is that the tribal lands of Binyamin were politically part of Judea. That does not mean that the tribe of Binyamin was adsorbed into the tribe of Y'hudah. That would mean that Bejamites would be called "Judeans" and might well refer to themselves as such, particularly in a document with later origins, especially when the oldest copies of the Book of Esther are in Greek, not Hebrew. BTW, the map of Israel in the Second Temple Period in my copy of the Schottenstein Talmud Yerushalayim Tractate Sheviis shows a Judea, but not a land pertaining to Binyamin.
You imply that the Arabs have as much claim to the Maarat Hamachpelah as Jews do since you claim they are Ishmaelites descended from Abraham.
No. That is an offensive misconstruction given what I have said in Post 73 above on this thread:
Why would anyone who wrote such a book attempt to say that Israel has no claim on Hevron?
It is pretty clear from that statement that I think the people of Israel have a legitimate claim upon Hevron. For the record, I think Israel should occupy the entire West Bank and expel if necessary the Jordanian occupants to their country as a consequence of their attack on Israel. Is that clear enough for you?
Also, you never answered my twice asked proof of that fact. Is it in the archaelogic record that Arabs are Ishmaelites? Where?
There is no physical proof of an Ishmael at all, so that is an absurd demand. We do know Arabs and Jews probably share common ancestry.
I ask you to show respect for my religion.
I ask you to read my posts for what they say before you make such a demonstrably false accusation. For example, as the faclities manager for our congregation, I am scheduled to spend the bulk of a day this week end preparing for a Purim play and Purim carnival fundraiser. Why would I do that if I had no respect for the Jewish traditions? Good grief.
However as usual the MSM sweeps this under the rug or spins it as the JEWS are the usual criminals while giving the terrorists/islamists a wide pass.
I can’t read Hebrew w/out the vowel pts.,so you’ll have to translate this one for me. Never mind! After I studied the letters,I figured out that it spells Barak Obama!
I wish I were fluent in Hebrew!I’m making my Bat Mitzvah in June,and I’m having a difficult time w/some of the words!Doesn’t exactly roll off my tongue.
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Never considered that. A good think.
I can’t believe I missed that!I should already know that that was an “F” and not a “B”.Hello!
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