Posted on 03/29/2010 4:05:06 AM PDT by Freedom'sWorthIt
1Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come. 3Don't let anyone deceive you in any way, for (that day will not come) until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.I've really got to wonder whether the problem of reading I see in these threads is the fault of the public education system or something more sinister. People see things that don't exist (like the guy quoted above) and overlook things that are right there (like the content of II Thessalonians 2:1-3 above). They trust people like Dr. Thomas Ice to give them pre-digested bits and pieces shaped by conclusions based upon questions that have been thoroughly begged and somehow think that by doing this they are studying scripture.
5All this is evidence that God's judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering. 6God is just: He will pay back trouble to those who trouble you 7and give relief to you who are troubled, and to us as well. This will happen when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire with his powerful angels. 8He will punish those who do not know God and do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the majesty of his power 10on the day he comes to be glorified in his holy people and to be marveled at among all those who have believed. This includes you, because you believed our testimony to you.
1. God's relief for his believers will come on the day that Jesus is revealed from heaven in blazing fire.
2. The punishment with everlasting destruction will happen on the day that Jesus comes to be glorified in his people and marveled at among all those who have believed.
3. This day, referred to again in chapter two, comes after the rebellion and the man of lawlessness is revealed.
4. The recipients of Paul's letter to the Thessalonians were principally Gentile believers.
Hi there. Song for you and for all! Pass the word....
Enjoy!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUxH5YBQoY
No, Paul doesn't teach this. Paul teaches the exact opposite: that the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed before the appearance of the Lord and our being gathered to him.
It seems pretty clear to me what the sequence is... (1) The Rapture, (2) The Antichrist is revealed.
And several scholars and/or teachers also make it clear here ...
Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
- 2 Thessalonians 2:3
I believe that there is a strong possibility that 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is speaking of the rapture. What do I mean? Some pretribulationists, like myself, think that the Greek noun apostasia, usually translated "apostasy," is a reference to the rapture and should be translated "departure." Thus, this passage would be saying that the day of the Lord will not come until the rapture comes before it. If apostasia is a reference to a physical departure, then 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is strong evidence for pretribulationism.
The Meaning of Apostasia
The Greek noun apostasia is only used twice in the New Testament. In addition to 2 Thessalonians 2:3, it occurs in Acts 21:21 where, speaking of Paul, it is said, "that you are teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses." The word is a Greek compound of apo "from" and istemi "stand." Thus, it has the core meaning of "away from" or "departure." The Liddell and Scott Greek Lexicon defines apostasia first as "defection, revolt;" then secondly as "departure, disappearance."1 Gordon Lewis explains how the verb from which the noun apostasia is derived supports the basic meaning of departure in the following:
The verb may mean to remove spatially. There is little reason then to deny that the noun can mean such a spatial removal or departure. Since the noun is used only one other time in the New Testament of apostasy from Moses (Acts 21:21), we can hardly conclude that its Biblical meaning is necessarily determined. The verb is used fifteen times in the New Testament. Of these fifteen, only three have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8;13; 1 Tim. 4:1; Heb 3:12). The word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Tim. 2:19), from ungodly men (1 Tim. 6:5), from the temple (Luke 2:27), from the body (2Cor. 12:8), and from persons (Acts 12:10; Luke 4:13).2
"It is with full assurance of proper exegetical study and with complete confidence in the original languages, "concludes Daniel Davey, "that the word meaning of apostasia is defined as departure."3 Paul Lee Tan adds the following:
What precisely does Paul mean when he says that "the falling away" (2:3) must come before the tribulation? The definite article "the" denotes that this will be a definite event, an event distinct from the appearance of the Man of Sin. The Greek word for "falling away", taken by itself, does not mean religious apostasy or defection. Neither does the word mean "to fall," as the Greeks have another word for that. [pipto, I fall; TDI] The best translation of the word is "to depart." The apostle Paul refers here to a definite event which he calls "the departure," and which will occur just before the start of the tribulation. This is the rapture of the church.4
So the word has the core meaning of departure and it depends upon the context to determine whether it is used to mean physical departure or an abstract departure such as departure from the faith.
Translation History
The first seven English translations of apostasia all rendered the noun as either "departure" or "departing." They are as follows: Wycliffe Bible (1384); Tyndale Bible (1526); Coverdale Bible (1535); Cranmer Bible (1539); Breeches Bible (1576); Beza Bible (1583); Geneva Bible (1608).5 This supports the notion that the word truly means "departure." In fact, Jerome's Latin translation known as the Vulgate from around the time of A.A. 400 renders apostasia with the "word discessio, meaning 'departure.'"6 Why was the King James Version the first to depart from the established translation of "departure"?
Theodore Beza, the Swiss reformer was the first to transliterate apostasia and create a new word, rather than translate it as others had done. The translators of the King James Version were the first to introduce the new rendering of apostasia as "falling away." Most English translators have followed the KJV and Beza in departing from translating apostasia as "departure." No good reason was ever given.
I've really got to wonder whether the problem of reading I see in these threads is the fault of the public education system or something more sinister.
Yeah, I kinda wonder, too... when I read the above... doncha know ... :-)
Thank you for all your wonderful comments on this thread.
God bless you!
You might enjoy this song also:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUxH5YBQoY
and a few others by Kim Hopper...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUxH5YBQoY
God bless you this Good Friday and coming Resurrection Day!
306 was for you.
Good morning and thank you again for all your posts - and God bless ou richly today - this GOOD Friday!
Hallelujah!
Look at the first chapter of II Thessalonians for Paul's description of the Lord's return ...
Ahhh..., yes, I see your problem here. You've failed to distinguish between the Lord returning to set up His Kingdom on this earth and rule and reign from Jerusalem, from His coming in the clouds for His church (the Rapture).
Don't worry, it seems to be a common mistake in some failing to distinguish between the Rapture and the coming to set up the Kingdom... You can see this from Post #286 ...
And in regards to Jesus' Second Coming, there will also be plenty of signs to look for to tell people exactly when He is coming. The Rapture, on the other hand, has no sign, no prophecy to be fulfilled, first, before it happens. With the Second Coming (to set up the Kingdom on earth for His one-world government) -- you can count exactly 1,260 days from the abomination of desolation that Jesus pointed out that Daniel spoke about -- and know to the day, exactly when Jesus will be arriving. See this from Post #213 ...
The New Testament teaches about the Rapture of the church and yet also speaks of the Second Coming of Christ. These two events are different in a number of ways. Note the following contrasts between the translation at the Rapture and Christ's Second Coming to establish the kingdom.
Rapture/Translation 2nd Coming/Estabish Kingdom
1. Translation of all believers 1. No translation at all
2. Translated saints go to heaven 2. Translated saints return to earth
3. Earth not judged 3. Earth judged & righteousness established
4. Imminent, any-moment, signless 4. Follows definite predicted signs including tribulation
5. Not in the Old Testament 5. Predicted often in Old Testament
6. Believers only 6. Affects all men
7. Before the day of wrath 7. Concluding the day of wrath
8. No reference to Satan 8. Satan bound
9. Christ comes for His own 9. Christ comes with His own
10. He comes in the air 10. He comes to the earth
11. He claims His bride 11. He comes with His bride
12. Only His own see Him 12. Every eye shall see Him
13. Tribulation begins 13. Millennial Kingdom begins
Dr. John Walvoord concludes that these "contrasts should make it evident that the translation of the church is an event quite different in character and time from the return of the Lord to establish His kingdom, and confirms the conclusion that the translation takes place before the tribulation."5
AND... see the following from Post #270 ...
In contrast to the imminent gathering of His church, there are numerous passages that deal with precedent events which must transpire prior to the "Second Coming" to establish His kingdom on the earth. Some of the passages referring to the Rapture and the Second Coming are summarized at the the table below.
|
Rapture |
Second Coming |
|
John 14:1-3 |
Dan 2:44-45 |
|
Rom 8:19 |
Dan 7:9-14 |
|
1 Cor 1:7-8 |
Dan 12:1-3 |
|
1 Cor 15:1-53 |
Zech 14:1-15 |
|
1 Cor 16:22 |
Matt 13:41 |
|
Phil 3:20-21 |
Matt 24:15-31 |
|
Col 3:4 |
Matt 26:64 |
|
1 Thess 1:10 |
Mark 13:14-27 |
|
1 Thess 2:19 |
Mark 14:62 |
|
1 Thess 4:13-18 |
Luke 21:25-28 |
|
1 Thess 5:9 |
Acts 1:9-11 |
|
1 Thess 5:23 |
Acts 3:19-21 |
|
2 Thess 2:1 (3?) |
1 Thess 3:13 |
|
1 Tim 6:14 |
2 Thess 1:6-10 |
|
2 Tim 4:1 |
2 Thess 2:8 |
|
Titus 2:13 |
2 Peter 3:1-14 |
|
Heb 9:28 |
Jude 14-15 |
|
James 5:7-9 |
Rev 1:7 |
|
1 Peter 1:7, 13 |
Rev 19:11-20:6 |
|
1 John 2:28-3:2 |
Rev 22:7, 12, 20 |
|
Jude 21 |
|
|
Rev 2:25 |
|
|
Rev 3:10 |
|
Hi there.
See you in the Rapture! We will have such a time talking about all this then!
Maranatha!
And may God bless you as well.
Amen!
Thank you.
Amen! Hallelujah! and Maranatha!
We need some "comic book exegetics" around here ... LOL ...
Exegesis (from the Greek ἐξηγεῖσθαι 'to lead out') is a critical explanation or interpretation of a text, especially a religious text. Traditionally the term was used primarily for exegesis of the Bible; however, in contemporary usage it has broadened to mean a critical explanation of any text, and the term Biblical exegesis is used for greater specificity. The goal of Biblical exegesis is to explore the meaning of the text which then leads to discovering its significance or relevance.
You may have mistaken this thread for the "comic book variety" that you favor ... doncha know ... LOL ...
You’re welcome... just trying to stave off the “comic book exegetics” that some want to engage in here ... :-)
God bless you! Jesus Is God, Incarnate! Jesus said as He entered Jerusalem - if you do not sing Praises (to Jesus) the rocks and the trees will cry out!
We worship Him, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!
God bless you!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XkUxH5YBQoY
Yes, in Daniel, the exact dates of Jesus’ birth and of His triumphant entry into Jerusalem, and of His Return - are there!
I don’t have the study materials on all of that but have seen them. Beth Moore’s Study on Daniel (video series) is totally breathakng for all who would like to explore that more.
Exactly - precisely - we are to KNOW the SEASON of His return though not the LITERAL DAY or the LITERAL Hour, so we are to WATCH, to SEE the sings of HIs Return, to be READY (prayed for all those we know who do not know Him yet), as we occupy til He comes, and to be looking up for that blessed appearance - which IS SO NEAR IT ALMOST TAKES MY BREATH AWAY!
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