If the Bible was "created by the Church" why does it nowhere mention the Catholic Church? Why is there no mention of a pope, a cardinal, an archbishop, a parish priest, a nun, or a member of any other Catholic order? If the Bible was "created by the Church", why is auricular confession, indulgences, prayers to the saints, adoration of Mary, veneration of relics and images, and many other rites and ceremonies of the Catholic Church, left out of it?
If the Bible was "created by the Church", how can Catholics account for the passage, "A bishop then, must be blameless, married but once, reserved, prudent, of good conduct, hospitable, a teacher...He should rule well his own household, keeping his children under control and perfectly respectful. For if a man cannot rule his own household, how is he to take care of the church of God?" (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5). The Catholic Church does not allow a bishop to marry, while the Bible says "he must be married." Furthermore, if the Bible was "created by the Church", why did they write the Bible as it is, and feel the necessity of putting footnotes at the bottom of the page in effort to keep their subject from believing what is in the text? The Old Testament came through the Jews (God's chosen people of old) who had the holy oracles entrusted to them. Paul said, "What advantage then remains to the Jew, or what is the use of circumcision? Much in every respect. First, indeed, because the oracles of God were entrusted to them." (Rom. 3:1-2; Rom. 9:4-5; Acts 7:38).
Did the "Church" give us the Old Testament? The Old Testament books were gathered into one volume and were translated from Hebrew into Greek long before Christ came to earth. The Septuagint Version was translated by seventy scholars at Alexandria, Egypt around the year 227 B.C., and this was the version Christ and His apostles used. Christ did not tell the people, as Catholics do today, that they could accept the Scriptures only on the basis of the authority of those who gathered them and declared them to be inspired. He urged the people of His day to follow the Old Testament Scriptures as the infallible guide, not because man or any group of men has sanctioned them as such, but because they came from God.
If the Bible was "created by the Church":
- Why does it condemn clerical dress? (Matt. 23:5-6).
- Why does it teach against the adoration of Mary? (Luke 11:27-28).
- Why does it show that all Christians are priests? (1 Pet. 2:5,9).
- Why does it condemn the observance of special days? (Gal. 4:9-11).
- Why does it teach that all Christians are saints? (1 Cor. 1:2).
- Why does it condemn the making and adoration of images? (Ex. 20:4-5).
- Why does it teach that baptism is immersion instead of pouring? (Col. 2:12).
- Why does it forbid us to address religious leaders as "father"? (Matt. 23:9).
- Why does it teach that Christ is the only foundation and not the apostle Peter? (1 Cor. 3:11).
- Why does it teach that there is one mediator instead of many? (1 Tim. 2:5).
- Why does it teach that a bishop must be a married man? (1 Tim. 3:2, 4-5).
- Why is it opposed to the primacy of Peter? (Luke 22:24-27).
- Why does it oppose the idea of purgatory? (Luke 16:26).
- Why is it completely silent about infant baptism, instrumental music in worship, indulgences, confession to priests, the rosary, the mass, and many other things in the Catholic Church?
God did not give any councils the authority to select His sacred books, nor does He expect men to receive His sacred books only because of councils or on the basis of councils. It takes no vote or sanction of a council to make the books of the Bible authoritative. Men were able to rightly discern which books were inspired before the existence of ecclesiastical councils and men can do so today. A council of men in 390 with no divine authority whatever, supposedly took upon itself the right to state which books were inspired, and Catholics argue, "We can accept the Bible only on the authority of the Catholic Church."
It cannot be proven that the Catholic Church is solely responsible for the gathering and selection of the New Testament books. In fact, it can be shown that the New Testament books were gathered into one volume and were in circulation long before the Catholic Church claims to have taken its action in 390 at the council of Hippo.
- 326. Athanasius, bishop at Alexandria, mentions all of the New Testament books.
- 315-386. Cyril, bishop at Jerusalem, gives a list of all New Testament books except Revelation.
- 270. Eusebius, bishop at Caesarea, called the Father of ecclesiastical history, gives an account of the persecution of Emperor Diocletian whose edict required that all churches be destroyed and the Scriptures burned. He lists all the books of the New Testament. He was commissioned by Constantine to have transcribed fifty copies of the Bible for use of the churches of Constantinople.
- 185-254. Origen, born at Alexandria, names all the books of both the Old and New Testaments.
- 165-220. Clement, of Alexandria, names all the books of the New Testament except Philemon, James, 2 Peter and 3 John. In addition we are told by Eusebius, who had the works of Clement, that he gave explanations and quotations from all the canonical books.
- 165-220. Clement, of Alexandria, names all the books of the New Testament except Philemon, James, 2 Peter and 3 John. In addition we are told by Eusebius, who had the works of Clement, that he gave explanations and quotations from all the canonical books.
- 160-240. Turtullian, contemporary of Origen and Clement, mentions all the New Testament books except 2 Peter, James and 2 John.
- 135-200. Irenaeus, quoted from all New Testament books except Philemon, Jude, James and 3 John.
- 100-147. Justin Martyr, mentions the Gospels as being four in number and quotes from them and some of the epistles of Paul and Revelation.
- Besides the above, the early church fathers have handed down in their writings quotations from all the New Testament books so much so that it is said that the entire New Testament can be reproduced from their writings alone.
The New Testament books were in existence in their present form at the close of the apostolic age.
So, like I said, my Bible comes from the Holy Spirit, not the Catholic church.
Dear GN, I see that B-Chan has not answered your long list of questions and challenges. I do not blame him, and ask you not to blame him. He may not have the time or the inclination just now --- BUT if we establish a basic understanding at the outset, then, if you don't mind, I'd like to take it on.
The basic understanding is this: when people have a religious (or even a political) disagreement, not much can be accomplished unless both parties assume good intention and good sense in the other party. In other words, neither party should assume that the other's argument proceeds from either sheer idiocy or a character flaw.
I'm willing to assume good intention and good sense on your part. If you can say the same, we could proceed to discuss these things.
OK? My ears are perked....
