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To: ForGod'sSake; definitelynotaliberal; Bigun
Three points. First, there were serious problems with the Articles, the topic of this thread. Second, the Articles could not be improved to achieve the goals of the convention. Third, some of the anti-federalists preferred the near anarchy under the Articles.

1.) As opposed to what is taken for fact at this forum, the problems with the Articles were serious enough to compel the states to correct them only six years after ratification. Here are a few.

Americans owed debts to Europeans. Several state legislatures denied standing for foreign creditors. Why would the civilized world invest in a country that would not uphold contracts?

As I said in post #15, the British continued to hold western outposts granted to us by treaty. They would do so until Brit creditors were repaid.

Congress could only beg the states for taxes. There was no power to collect.

Foreign countries realized that Congress had no power to enforce commercial treaties. There was nothing to prevent each state from negotiating trade deals. MA, RI, NH imposed trade restraints on British trade in the hope of exacting concessions from Parliament.

Internal commerce among the states was awful. Some states imposed tariffs on the goods of others.

Private lending was at a near standstill. Post war America was in the grip of a deep depression.

The thirteen member Congress possessed quasi-judicial powers. That’s right, politicians with authority to adjudicate yet no power to enforce. The Congress court overturned a Pennsylvania court decision regarding the war time capture of a British vessel. Pennsylvania simply refused to comply.

There were numerous times when not enough states were present in Congress to constitute a quorum. No business could be done.

George Washington wrote in 1786, “We are fast verging to anarchy and confusion. In 1775 there was more patriotism in a single village than there is now in the 13 states.”

John Jay feared that the “orderly and industrious portion of the population, dismayed at the general uncertainty and above all, by the insecurity of property, might consider the charms of liberty as imaginary, . . . and turn to a king or dictator.”

2) I hope everyone here realizes that the Articles of Confederation were no more than treaties among sovereign states. As in any treaty, the parties were pledged to certain actions under particular circumstances. Also as in any treaty, no one state or combination could legally force compulsion. A state was a political entity like Virginia, or France, like Massachusetts or Great Britain.

If the Articles were so great, why didn’t a single delegate to the Constitutional or State ratifying conventions scream, “STOP, I have a plan to correct the Articles regarding taxation and commerce?”

Patrick Henry, the definition and very face of arch-antifederalism never offered an alternative.

Nobody did because it was impossible. The government of the US was a Congress of thirteen ambassadors. It would have been suicidal to our liberties to give a single body, Congress, the requisite legislative, judicial, and executive powers. Such a grant of power would have been tyrannical and was never proposed. As John Adams put it, “a people cannot be long free nor ever happy whose government is in one assembly.”

I’ve read a few classics on political philosophy. The latest was Aristotle’s “Politics.” He examines in exquisite detail every form of government. They include monarchies, dictatorships, aristocracies, oligarchies, constitutional republics and democracies. If a confederacy was a form of government, I suspect it is safe to assume he would have included it.

Hamilton was spot on when he said in #15, “They seem still to aim at things repugnant and irreconcilable; at an augmentation of federal authority without a diminution of state authority.”

3) For years I a have read at this forum of the ulterior motives of the federalists. Okay, fine. Men are not angels. By the same, it is clear to me that there were anti-federalists who had personal motives to maintain the anarchy under the Articles.

52 posted on 04/30/2010 9:58:50 AM PDT by Jacquerie (That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among Men.)
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To: Jacquerie
Second, the Articles could not be improved to achieve the goals of the convention.

Baloney!

The convention was stampeded to the idea of a NEW Constitution before there had been any real attempt at doing what they had specifically been sent to Philadelphia to do! That is precisely why every single member of the New York delegation save Hamilton went home and refused to participate!

53 posted on 04/30/2010 10:10:00 AM PDT by Bigun ("It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire)
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To: Jacquerie
Regardless of all that, the KEY ideal of the founders in construction of both the Articles AND the Constitution were the States.

" Article II. Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every power, jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this Confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

Amendment X. The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

And THAT is what the likes of Hamilton, Jay, Marshall, and those who followed them could not allow to stand if their dreams were to be realized!

54 posted on 04/30/2010 10:22:54 AM PDT by Bigun ("It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." Voltaire)
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To: Jacquerie; Publius; Billthedrill; Bigun
To this non-student of history many of your arguments appear to be valid but it only goes to show our Founders didn't create a perfect government the first time. I submit the same could be said of their second effort in that it could be reasonably argued it swung too far the other way, towards centralized power. The addition of the BOR certainly went a long way in perfecting the documents but time has shown that men with designs on acquiring power can still beat any system, even the best ever devised by human beings.

I would truly like some of yuz to take a crack at an earlier question, to wit:

Why do we not hear longer and louder arguments for the notion that the amendments to the Constitution, and in particular the Bill of Rights, as being modifiers to the Constitution? Just as addendums to a contract modify and/or expand the original document. That is, the BOR especially should be looked to first when studying the context of the Constitution.

Carry on...

77 posted on 04/30/2010 6:05:13 PM PDT by ForGod'sSake (You have just two choices: SUBMIT or RESIST with everything you've got!)
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