Let me make sure I have this straight: white Supremeist nut job who once threatened to kill Pres. Reagan and who brainwashed his son to point where son killed a Federal Agent enforcing a lawful arrest warrant, refused to surrender to police, and thereafter had his pregnant wife hold open door instead of at least letting her surrender and at least getting her out of harms way, and agent was following order to shoot armed male and actually did shoot armed male (Harris) bullet went through his shoulder and killed women who never should have been there in first place. Agent is the bad guy. Okay. Now I know why people think the “right” is nuts.
Maybe you need to re-read what really happened. They came on their land, killed the boy’s dog, the kid had no idea who they were and shot back.
Still you sound like someone who can raionalize shooting a woman holding a baby. Go away.
The biggest issue was that the Federal government changed the rules of engagement to what was essentially a “shoot to kill” rule. Between the outrage over that and Waco, Federal law enforcement hasn’t changed the rules of engagement since then. A few incidents that could have ended in bloodshed since then (The Freemen in Montana, the arrest of Warren Jeffs of the Polygamist Mormons) were handled very professionally.
Government can easily slide into abuse of their power unless people are vigilant. It’s true that Randy Weaver and David Koresh were not the most sympathetic of characters. It is a great credit to conservatives that they looked past the personalities involved and seized on the important issue and thus gave a warning to the government about going too far.
From your screen-name, I presume you blindly approve anything the FBI does. This guy isn’t exactly the Efrum Zimballist, Jr. character.
But you don't. So you're just another a**hole with a misinformed opinion.
It goes wayyyyyyy back before that. Weaver held unpopular views. So why was he set up to begin with?
You have it as straight as Janye Edgar
1. alleged threats the Secret Service investigated. no charges
2. Sammy Weaver may have been no Eagle Scout (but The Famous But Incompetent kills them too) but as far as he knew he shot at a trespasser who just killed his dog.
3, Shooting an armed male not actually threatening anyone is illegal - whatever the Rules of Engagement the FIB invents say.
You may want to do a little more research on this before you rush to judgment.
The Feds in this case were wrong from the start. Weaver was set up then they went after him. He was totally justified to protect his family and property from these jackbooted thugs.
Like the man said get your facts straight moron. One, Weaver was not a white supremist he was a separatist. He wanted to live with his own kind just like Italian Americans, Mexican Americans, Black Americans, etc. Two, he didn’t brainwash his son, his son killed a guy because this stranger crawling around his yard waring “camo” had just killed his dog. As for the arrest warrant, the arrest warrant had an incorrect summons date on it. That’s why Weaver didn’t show up in court. His wife was shot through a closed door holding a baby in her arms. Someone asked in here why were they trying to set Weaver up, they wanted Randy Weaver to rat two buddies out and he wouldn’t do it. Finally, if the government was so righteous, why did they pay Weaver a little over $5 million as a settlement?
Are you stoned?
Your “facts” are way way wrong...and your spelling sucks.
Beside that, anyone who obviously admires a cross-dressing homosexual deviant enough to adopt his name as your screen-name might have some ‘issues’ to resolve before having any credibility here.
Maybe these words, taken directly from the Department of Justice report will better help in understanding why people here feel the way they do toward Horiuchi...:
"Our review found numerous problems with the conduct ofthe FBI at Ruby Ridge. Although we concluded that the decision to deploy the HRT to Ruby Ridge was appropriate and consistent with Department policy, we do not believe that the FBI's initial attempts at intelligence gathering at the scene were sufficiently thorough. We also found serious problems with the terms of the Rules of Engagement in force at Ruby Ridge. Certain portions of these Rules not only departed from the FBI's standard deadly force policy but also contravened the Constitution of the United States. In addition, we found these Rules to be imprecise and believe that they may have created anatmosphere that encouraged the use of deadly force thereby having the effect of contributing to an unintentional death.
With regard to the two shots fired on August 22, we concluded that the first shot met the standard of "objective reasonableness" the Constitution requires for the legal use of deadly force but that the second shot did not satisfy thatstandard. It is our conclusion that the sniper/observer who took the second shot intended to shoot Kevin Harris but accidentally killed Vicki Weaver whom he did not see behind the curtained door. We also found the internal FBI review of the shooting incident has not been sufficiently thorough and reached incorrect conclusions about the second shot.
Our examination of the command and control of the crisisby the FBI, found numerous shortcomings. These shortcoming sincluded initial inadequacies in utilizing negotiating personnel, communicating with FBI Headquarters, documenting decisions and securing the site.
During and after the crisis, the crime scenes were searched by many law enforcement officials under the direct supervision of the FBI. We found the FBI's handling of the crime scene searches to be inadequate including its failure to use basic crime scene techniques in collecting evidence. Furthermore, the general disorganization and inexperience of some of the participants coupled with inaccuracies in the searches adversely affected the prosecution and contributed to the negative impression of the government generated during the trial. We found no evidence that these deficiencies were intentional or that the FBI staged evidence for the prosecution's benefit."
This is just a portion of the document from the Department of Justice... A thorough review of the transcripts from the Senate investigation go a long way toward seeing the problems also.
Now... I'm not big on the White Separatist folks (for the record, and according to numerous government documentation gathered "after the fact", Weaver was a Separatist, not a Supremist) but people have a right to believe what they want to believe. That is the great thing about this country (their rights stop when they are infringing on mine.) Just because we don't agree with the man's ideology, doesn't lessen his rights as a citizen. I don't like what he believed at that time (he has changed, according to many) but he had a right to believe it. Regarding his alledged threat to President Reagan, this from the Department of Justice Office of Professional Responsibility Ruby Ridge Task Force Report:
"In 1984, Randy Weaver and neighbor Terry Kinnison had a dispute over a $3,000 land deal. (Kinnison subsequently lost the lawsuit and was ordered to pay Weaver an additional $2,100 in court costs and damages.) Kinnison wrote letters to the FBI, Secret Service, and county sheriff alleging Weaver had threatened to kill the Pope, the President, and the governor of Idaho. In January 1985, the FBI and the Secret Service started an investigation. In February, Randy and Vicki Weaver met with two FBI agents, two Secret Service agents, and the Boundary County sheriff and his chief investigator and were interviewed for hours. While the Secret Service was told that Weaver was a member of the Aryan Nations and that he had a large weapons cache at his residence, Weaver denied the allegations and no charges were filed."
So... Evidently, the feds didn't feel like there was anything to this story.
As far as his kid being brainwashed into shooting a Federal Agent... Well, it was Kevin Harris that fired the fatal shot on the agent, not the boy. The agent was killed after: 1) agent shot the dog, 2) young boy sees a man holding weapon, realizes the man just killed his dog and was leveling the weapon at him, so young boy fires in the direction of unknown man, an agent 3) Agent shoots and kills boy, and then 4) Kevin Harris fires the shot that kills the agent. Kevin Harris was charged with murder, that charge being dismissed because of the circumstances.
Now... Having said all of this... I'm not into Cop-bashing... (I grew up in a house full of law enforcement - dad and his friends) But, I am also not into people being assigned to the HRT that don't understand the fact that "collateral damage" is not acceptable in situations like the one that occurred at Ruby Ridge. Eveyone behind a trigger has to know and understand their limitations... I really don't care whether someone is a law enforcement officer or a civilian: YOU ARE LEGALLY, MORALLY, AND FINANCIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR EVERY ROUND YOU FIRE. Horiuchi either a) intentionally fired into a cabin without caring what he hit (so he is responsible for the death of an innocent person), or b) he attempted to make a shot for which he was not prepared or able to accurately complete (in which case he would again responsible for the death of an innocent person.)
I am not in favor of law enforcement agencies working paramilitary style operations... They almost always have a problem, and one bit of bad information means trouble. Law enforcement is meant to enforce the law, and keep the bad guys from hurting others. Military units are meant to destroy people and infrastructure in order to bring about a swift end to a conflict between nations or groups of nations - hopefully sooner than later one side makes a decision regarding "is it worth it?". When law enforcement takes on a military role, innocent people die - too much uncontroled firepower in a civilian environment is not a good thing. When military takes on a law enforcement role, innocent people die - usually the ones in military uniforms, because they are being forced to abide by some assinine set of Rules of Engagement brought on by a "law enforcment" role that they have been handed in the middle of a war zone.
Ruby Ridge was a disaster for both sides... Weaver lost his family. Agents' families are missing husbands/fathers. But this is what happens when federal agencies get too high-handed and forget that they are law enforcement, not military. (BATFE is, technically, a tax collection agency. But it was decided that all federal officers should carry a gun. Look what BATFE has grown into - they now have airpower stronger than many third world nations... SHEEESSHHH!)
To paraphrase Fred Thompson (love him or hate him, he said this one right): "We are here, and spending all this time and money on these hearings, because of an old boy that cut 2 inches too much off of a shotgun barrel, and it escalated to this."
Just my .02...
Respectfully, and with regards,
Raven6
You don’t “have it straight.” Check your facts. Horiuchi is scum.
You haven’t got anything but a completely bogus story, pal.
the officers came up and shot their dog, then shot Sammy weaver , on bogus charges for making a sawed off shotgun by his dad. The whole thing could have once AGAIN been done by snatching this guy in town but the ATF and FBI wanted to show the media what a cool bunch of ninjas they are and ONCE AGAIN f@$ked up. That is why the white supremacists won a couple of million dollars. He lost his wife. He lost a son and he lost an unborn child for living out in the middle of the sticks and making the mistake of being a Christian who thinks that whites are superior to other races. I am brown skinned and he might or does hate my "kind" but I think that you have the right to not like me because I am brown. The Waco and ruby ridge incidents were the governments way of letting Christian protesters that the ATF and FBI were not screwing around and that if you say you want to "go" they will more than willing to oblige.
You have no idea what you are talking about.
You haven’t got it straight. For one thing, Weaver didn’t threaten Reagan or anyone else. He wanted to be left alone. Another issue is that he willfully provided a sawed off shotgun to the informant. He refused to cut the barrel less than 18”, thinking that was the proper compliance with the NFA. He didn’t know (most people don’t) that a shotgun also has to have an overall length greater than 26”. This is why the gov’t lost the case against him. Entrapment is a dirty business.
Of the ten charges against Weaver, two counts were dismissed by the judge. Six got not guilty verdicts. One guilty verdict was set aside by the judge. The remaining guilty verdict was for failure to appear.
The feds paid over $3,000,000 to the Weaver family to avoid civil suit. Kevin Harris was not so easily dissuaded and won $380,000 at trial.
“Let me make sure I have this straight: white Supremeist nut job who once threatened to kill Pres. Reagan and who brainwashed his son to point where son killed a Federal Agent enforcing a lawful arrest warrant, refused to surrender to police, and thereafter had his pregnant wife hold open door instead of at least letting her surrender and at least getting her out of harms way, and agent was following order to shoot armed male and actually did shoot armed male (Harris) bullet went through his shoulder and killed women who never should have been there in first place. Agent is the bad guy. Okay. Now I know why people think the “right” is nuts.”
Doesn’t seem like you got anything right...well, maybe the government story line, but not the facts.