Posted on 06/23/2010 6:27:30 AM PDT by shortstop
Once again I will point out, as I said up thread, statistics are man originated. Will you put your faith in them?
I put my faith in God. II Thessalonians 3:3
More than 90% of children from highly active, weekly church attending ( Sunday and Wednesday evening), evangelical families are not active in their faith 2 years after graduation from high school, and hold to religious beliefs that utterly un-Christian and highly secular humanist.
More than 90% of youth who were mostly homeschooled are strongly active and rooted in the faith of their fathers two years after high school.
My church doesn't have service on Wednesdays. Where does that put me?
Also, can you link your statistics? However, please do not link a highly biased organization, as those stats are dubious at best.
And when ALPA pilots voted to take over United Airlines, they stole all the cash and drove the company into the ground.
So there you go.
Snuke—I know your parents are proud of you and your example honors them. God bless you in your continued defense of your faith.
When I quiz parents of academically successful institutionalized children about their academic homelife, these parents and children are doing everything my kids and I did in our homeschooling program. I have never met an exception. But...Yes, this is anecdotal, just as much as your personal example is.
My conclusion: Little learning happens in the school. 99% of the grunt work is done in the home.
But....Since we have ARMIES of highly paid professional “educators” in this nation, any teacher should be able to immediately direct me to the studies that show **exactly** how much learning is acquired in the home due to the parents and child's own efforts, and how much is entirely due to the government school. No “educator” has ever provide these links. I conclude it is because these studies have never been done.
Gee! I would think that every so-called “professional” educator would be extremely interested in knowing just exactly where ( home or school) and how ( teacher provided, or child and parent provided) education is acquired.
My conclusion: Little learning happens in any government school. The only thing the government is doing is sending home a curriculum for the child and parents to follow.
Because I would not be alone in that situation. There will be many, many people for whom complete homeschooling is not a viable option, for whatever reason. If people do have the skill, time, money and inclination to homeschool, all power to them, but what happens to the rest of us if you do abolish public education? In that case it most definitely will not be a positive experience for some individuals, and certainly will not produce good results in society.
Yes, it does. All government - or at least all governments observed in recorded history - have a universal tendency to greater oppressiveness and less utility.
Then what was the point of the declaration of independence?
I wouldn't have, except that when I saw that, I said to myself, "Whoops, not my daughter!"
So we have more students with more qualifications but less actual knowledge. Just terrific.
Hey, don't look at me. Although I was previously unaware of the origins of public education in Massachusetts, I'm not one to say that there were no government schools before 1860.
sitetest
My spelling ability is the product of the public education I received! LOL LOL LOL! A little humor in keeping with the thread...:)
“Your snide comments and condescension aside,...”
Just responding in kind. ;-)
Now to the other part of your idiocy:
“...nothing you say counters the point that colonial schools, even if continued to be run the same way by localities after the formation of America, isn't the same thing as having American publicly funded government run schools prior to the 1860’s.”
Sorry, but no, that's not correct.
The poster's original comment was:
“It began when the very first government school that opened in the mid-1800s. [emphasis added]”
But, wait! Maryland had a government! That government instructed the governments of subsidiary jurisdictions (in Maryland, counties are creatures of the state) to build, open and operate schools, and to pay for them!
Thus, somewhere between 1724 and 1746, the government of my county in Maryland built, paid for, and operated a school!
If that's not a government school, then words have no meaning.
Your quibble that that was before there was a United States is irrelevant, as wintertime didn't specifiy, "the very first government school AFTER the Revolution in the United States," but even if I allow that quibble, well, in Maryland, AFTER the Revolution, the government CONTINUED to build, open and operate schools - paid for by... [drum roll] the government!
Imagine that! Schools paid for and run by the government in a state of the United States before 1860!
Let's recap:
For well over 100 years before 1860, Maryland had government-funded and government-run schools, including the 80+ years before 1860 when it was a state of the United States of America.
“Localities have never been in control of the ‘modern’ public educational system as it was created whole cloth by socialists for the express purpose of indoctrinating the masses.”
This, as I said before, is a non sequitur. I hadn't said one way or other whether or not there was local control of these government schools that pre-dated 1860. What I actually said was that government schools existed prior to 1860.
But, let's look at what you've said. The statement is too on/off. I know of no public school system in the United States where the locality, by way of its elected government, does not have formal control of its public schools. I agree that to one degree or other, practical control over public school systems has been gradually ceded to “professional” educational elites, many of whom are following precisely the agenda that you cite.
But it didn't happen overnight, and it hasn't happened to the same degree in all places, although my own view is that unfortunately, it has happened the most completely in the very largest school systems, so the net effect is that the overwhelming majority of students attend public school in school systems where “professional” educational elites have seized practical (if not formal) control of education therein.
And in many places, what wintertime has described infiltrated pre-existing government schools - government schools that had existed BEFORE 1860.
But that was sorta not germane to the original point, which is that there have been government schools in the United States for a long time before 1860.
sitetest
That's the problem with most of the children in society. It's not the teachers. It's the parents. If the parents do not give a damn about their kids or their kids' education, then the children will be academically unsuccessful, no matter the quality of the teacher.
The reason your children, and the children of every other poster so far, succeed is because you care enough about them to push them and to figure out to what they will best respond.
Your conclusions are false and ignorant, as usual. It is foolhardy in the extreme to arbitrarily speak for every child and every teacher in the US. Your claim that 99% of the grunt work is done in the home is incorrect. I can see how you can draw that conclusion from your own limited experiences and the experiences of a very biased group (fellow homeschoolers), but there are plenty of people out here offering different opinions, though you refuse to listen to anything they say.
But....Since we have ARMIES of highly paid professional “educators” in this nation, any teacher should be able to immediately direct me to the studies that show **exactly** how much learning is acquired in the home due to the parents and child's own efforts, and how much is entirely due to the government school. No “educator” has ever provide these links. I conclude it is because these studies have never been done.
How exactly would you quantify this? Doesn't a child's own efforts fall under both categories? You can have the best schooling (private, public, homeschooling) but if the child has no interest in learning, nothing you or anyone can do will have an ounce of effect. This would be an impossible and futile study with no possible conclusion but inconclusive and wasted tax dollars. What studies have been done, show that it is of vital importance that education itself is a priority in the home, else the child is handicapped, as are the teachers.
Interesting philosophical question ... or maybe it's an interesting accounting question! I would say that, if the tithe were paid directly to the church, and the church ran the schools independently of the government, then those would be church, not government, schools.
However, it seems to me that such a situation would be unlikely to exist in reality. State-established churches tend (for example) to have clergy chosen or approved by the state, or to be expected to take certain positions regarding actions of the state.
That's not the situation we have today, where state governments mandate curriculum and compose textbooks, but it's not full independence, either.
Woah....are you saying I taught you something? I posted that because I thought it would just be a reminder of where it started.
One interesting thing about that law is that it followed another one that more or less demanded that parents be good parents - and that in the mid-1600’s this was deemed necessary by the government.
Which makes me ask the next question....how far back do we have to go before we don’t find one generation claiming the next is out of control?
Woah....are you saying I taught you something? I posted that because I thought it would just be a reminder of where it started.
One interesting thing about that law is that it followed another one that more or less demanded that parents be good parents - and that in the mid-1600’s this was deemed necessary by the government.
Which makes me ask the next question....how far back do we have to go before we don’t find one generation claiming the next is out of control?
“Woah....are you saying I taught you something?”
Yep!
It turns out that this actually happened in Maryland in colonial times. In 1696, King William's free school was begun in Annapolis, MD. It was funded by the Anglican Church (Its chancellor was the Archbishop of Canterbury!), but it was paid for through government-enforced mandatory tithes (not sure if you gave your bucks directly to the local Anglican parish or to the government directly), was chartered by the colonial assembly, and the board of trustees was established by the government and the board derived their legal authority directly from the legislature. The school morphed into King William's College and then ultimately became St. John's College (which is now a private school).
I hate that it's a one-party fascist state, but Maryland is a lot of fun, historically-speaking.
sitetest
What happened to the rest of you who didn't own farms when they abolished the free, government-run restaurants?
That is to say, in the hypothetical absence of government schools, parents would pay for the education of their children at private institutions, just as we non-farmers pay for our food at private grocery stores or restaurants. If we could not pay, we would seek private charity.
What was the point of the Declaration of Independence?
To declare that the British Colonies in North America were a separate nation, governed by themselves, no longer subject to the rule of the British King. Have you read the Declaration of Independence? That's what it does.
If you think that our Founders thought that document, or (more to the point) the Constitution, was going to create a system of government immune to the forces that affected all others, past and present, you are mistaken. The Constitutional Convention records and other documents such as the Federal Papers, make it clear that they were keenly aware of the possibility of the failure of their republican experiment.
Lonsberry claims to be a conservative. He’s about as conservative as Barack Obama.
ALPA Pilots bought the Airline with their OWN money. THEN they drove it into the ground while in the process loosing all their hard earned money.
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