Posted on 06/23/2010 6:27:30 AM PDT by shortstop
In several ancient civilizations (Greece, Egypt, Sumeria), most of the oldest surviving written texts are inventory or accounting records. (As an accountant, I find this fascinating.) However, among these very ancient texts, in each culture, we can find writings complaining that the younger generation is lazy, useless, impious, disobedient, has a tacky girlfriend, and refuses to take the dog for a walk even when she's desperate.
And the "oldest known" written records keep getting older, with new archaeological discoveries!
Thomas Jefferson, through his letters, was a strong public education proponent.
That being said, I’m pretty sure he would not recognize many of today’s public schools.
Thank you, I appreciate it. I am very thankful for my parents and their support, and am glad that I am able to make them proud.
Hey, I remember when I was in school we learned that the ancient Greeks thought that the innovation of the written word was corrupting. It would make men lazy, as they wouldn't have to remember everything - they'd be able to look things up!
By the way, I looked it up - the old free school actually has SIX rooms, not two. I've been in the school, but I didn't realize there was an upstairs. Originally, the county bought 149.5 acres for the school. Quite a campus! LOL! My house (along with most of the houses in the neighborhood) is actually built on a part of the land. Pretty cool.
sitetest
There's a case to be made for government education, as well as a case to be made against it. On either side, the evidence available to support the argument is different from what Jefferson had available. As an anti-Federalist, he certainly wouldn't have supported Federal Government controlled education.
And I'm sure he'd be appalled at the University of Virginia these days!
I think that was an opinion of Socrates, in particular. On the other hand, we wouldn't know what any of the ancient Greeks thought if they hadn't had writing!
Maybe the 150 acres was for the students to run around on, as well as for the teacher to farm.
Sadly, as a grad of UVA, I have to admit there is much truth to your statement.
I think Jefferson would appreciate that the honor code is still in place, and is enforced; I think he would approve of the tutoring and volunteering the students and faculty do.
But the liberal bias that runs through most of the university.....not so much.
And as far as to whether or not Jefferson was a Federalist or anti-Federalist, that is a complicated tangle that historians still cannot agree on. Personally, based on what I’ve read, I think he was a Federalist, but he hated certain members in the party so much, he would have disagreed with them on the color of the grass.
Socrates - That's what I remember, too. And it is ironic that he would be entirely forgotten by history if his heirs hadn't written stuff down.
150 acres - It was probably mostly for farming. I recall reading once the terms of employment given by the county government to the schoolmaster. His pay was rather meager. I guess since they were giving him free room and enough land to farm that his board was also provided, they figured they didn't have to pay him much. I'm not sure exactly how the school land was configured, but I think that part of the farm still exists next to our neighborhood. Thirty-five acres with horses, cattle, goats (and sometimes sheep).
sitetest
LOL - I think that’s a pretty good reading of Jefferson. He’s really not consistent enough to call him “anti-Federalist” with full confidence.
I didn’t not mean to imply that everything at UVA, or VaTech, or other universities is bad. There are plenty of well-intentioned people doing kind acts, and an outstanding education available in some areas. However, as readers of the Greek and Roman classics, Jefferson and his educated contemporaries would recognize the corruption of our major institutions as something that has happened before.
It was indeed Socrates. He believed that writing was a form of mimesis, of an inferior copy. Any deviation from an original was considered a corrupting influence. Writing in particular was a crutch that would prevent people from utilizing their full memory capability.
Plato obviously disagreed!
Almost everything we know about Socrates comes from Plato or Xenophon. I wonder if Socrates would prefer they hadn’t written about him. Surely he’d rather Aristophanes hadn’t!
Without writing, there never could have been Greek drama. Even with so few participants, a writer couldn’t have taught each part to each actor purely by memory. It would the composer of a string quartet’s teaching each musician his part by rote!
Very interesting. I’ll bet the teacher had share-croppers working the farm - or a very large family. It would be hard for one person or even a small family to grow even subsistence crops while holding a day job.
There were no Japanese beetles in the US then. They’re eating my corn.
I agree, of course, that writing was necessary. Socrates (through Plato, whom we always must remember is an imperfect narrator at best) was mostly talking about his speeches/dialogues. Also, Plato's own attitudes changed as he wrote the dialogues, so what he believed during Republic was not necessarily the same during Laws.
He may have had sharecroppers. Or slaves. Or lots of children of his own. Or, he may have enlisted the services of some of the young lads he was teaching. Remember, though, that school was probably only in session a few hours per day, and only for maybe 8 months out of the year, with breaks for everyone to tend to the crops when necessary. Most of the young men who attended the free school were likely the sons of local farmers, who, themselves, would have needed to work the farms of their families.
I dug back into it - he could grow whatever he wanted, how much he wanted (which implies he could sell it) except for tobacco. That was the big cash crop here back then.
sitetest
That makes sense. The teacher would be pretty unpopular if he were competing, at an advantage, with the local taxpayers in the marketing of their money crop.
My folks used to grow a little tobacco out in Missouri in the 30s and 40s. The only time they could afford a big purchase, like a Model T, was when they sold a good tobacco crop. The profits on food crops were never as high.
Good point.
Seaman Anoreth loves the Greeks. I'm collecting additional items (in small paperbacks) at the used book store while she's at sea.
Libertarians have been advocating this for many years. I’m personally of the opinion that public education should be like public housing, a means of last resort.
I love Ancient Greek. I’m doing a minor in it, just because I can. I haven’t translated Plato, yet. He tends to come towards the end as he has particularly convoluted sentences, even in English.
We have a charter school here in the Charlotte area - two campuses, now - that teaches modern Greek along with the general subjects, starting in Kindergarten. It's called "Socrates Academy." I asked my batty Pat if he wanted to go there, but he got his crazy-eyed look and said, "We don't go to SCHOOL!"
I’m doing a minor in it
Good for you! Anoreth will have that option, since the Coast Guard will pay for her college education, either while she's active duty or later. I did a minor in Spanish, with my parents yelling, "What does this have to do with accounting? When are you going to graduate?!? What do you mean you're getting married!?!"
But all's well that ends well.
Good for your son! I'm a bit of an old soul, so I really appreciate and understand that. New Testament Greek is much simpler than Homer/Xenophon. Homer is the hardest; his dialect is called Homeric Greek. Then there is Attic Greek, which is what I am studying, which is slightly simpler, but more complicated than Doric Greek. Interestingly enough, Doric Greek - which was spoken by the Spartans - was considered in contemporary Greeks to be an uneducated and boorish dialect. In Old Comedy plays, the playwrights would often have the "idiot" speak Doric.
But I digress... Platonic Greek is also very difficult, but that's mostly because of his insane sentence structure! New Testament, being a millennium after Homer and centuries after classical Attic Greek, is much simpler, but still quite difficult. What a great idea for the both of you!
The best tool to help you is a good Greek-English dictionary, like Liddel-Scott.
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