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Ron Paul: 13th Amendment bans income tax
Youtube ^ | June 27, 2010 | RidleyReport

Posted on 06/28/2010 7:49:04 PM PDT by citizenredstater9271

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To: tisket
To ratify is not the same as to enact. I've already posted more than enough on that point, so why don't you respond to that?

Beyond that, there is nothing else to respond to: the pretense ('cause it sure doesn't qualify as an argument) that the 13th Amendment somehow - magically, and by some strange aura or emanation or, dare I say, penumbra - repealed or modified Article V of the Constitution, or even better, magically anticipated the 16th Amendment and then somehow, through some sleight of hand (perhaps a legislative wormhole) repealed the 16th Amendment before it was even contemplated by, let alone proposed by, Congress, is simply not worth any more time and effort - it should be self-evident to all but a liberal that, unless the 13th Amendment changed the operative language of Article V - which it did not - that the 13th Amendment cannot have had any effect on the 16th Amendment; rather, to the extent that there is any conflict between the 13th and the 16th, the 16th controls.
101 posted on 06/29/2010 3:58:46 AM PDT by Oceander (The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance -- Thos. Jefferson)
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To: citizenredstater9271
I am familiar with the Ludwigs “school”.

Anyways, big on theory, short on application in the real world.

Private armies are the thing of kings (CEOs) and that can open a Pandora’s box of issues. There was a reason the founders provided for a government run military.

Of course you Paulinati and your beloved Ron Paul are all smarter than the founders as well as the rest of us “fake conservatives”. In fact despite making admiring references to the founding fathers Ron Paul and his followers have much better tdeas than they on running the USA.

Crackpot is not going to fix the country, a sound approach based on the ideas of the founding fathers tempered with a Conservative approach to the necessities of 21st century realities will.

That will, whether we like it or not, require some way of paying for the things only the government can do. The trick is to stick to those things that are absolutely essential, the things the states cannot do or are required to coordinate between the states such as military, transport and such.

BTW I take it you are no fan of Ronald Reagan.

102 posted on 06/29/2010 4:41:16 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
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To: dragnet2

“’I have no problem with an income tax in general.’
Such an odd statement for a conservative forum....”

“Conservative forum” does not mean “check-your-brain-at-the-door forum.”

The federal government clearly spends lots and lots of money that it should not spend. However, the federal government provides some essential services, as intended by the framers of the Constitution and as desired by a huge majority of Americans. Maintaining the Armed Services and fighting wars are two of those services. In some cases, the federal government spends less than it should. Border security comes to mind.

Taxes must be levied to raise the money the federal government needs to spend on essential services. An income tax seems to be the best way to do that. As I said previously, I do not like the current tax code; but I cannot think of a more appropriate source of revenue than a tax tied in some way to income.


103 posted on 06/29/2010 6:45:16 AM PDT by olrtex
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To: olrtex
You are such a “fake conservative” with your “love of the Military” and wanting to deal with reality and stuff...

You probably support the imperialist war on terror and are a fan of Ronald Reagan too.

“Real conservatives” know the only way to assure the future of our Republic is to take it all apart even past what the founders envisioned or let it be destroyed...

Sheesh, get with the program...

104 posted on 06/29/2010 7:09:24 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
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To: citizenredstater9271
WHAT??? Dr. Paul is 100% pro-life. He has never come out in support of abortion.

WHAT??? If cut and run was not in support of abortion why did he demand an underage girl be allowd to cross state lines in order to get one?
105 posted on 06/29/2010 7:18:32 AM PDT by John D
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To: Oceander
What do you do - sleep with the IRC under your pillow?

That was the most convoluted answer, not to my posts, but to your own previous posts earlier in this thread. You sound like an IRS shill, for heaven's sake. Especially by throwing the epithet "liberal" at me. Only trolls seem to have a need to do that, as if by using the worst insult they can think of, they hope to derail logical discussion.

As I said earlier, a basic tenet of law is that there can be no contradiction. If this is something that is beyond your comprehension (or your pay grade) then any further explanation I can offer would be moot.

106 posted on 06/29/2010 7:19:35 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: PugetSoundSoldier
Try copying and pasting the URL.

If you don't file a 1040 the IRS will come after you with levies and seizures, confiscation and jail time. The courts back them up, so you have no recourse.

Go ahead, try not filing or paying and see where it gets you.

It doesn't matter that they have no laws to back them up if the courts do. Which is what I said earlier - and what Oceander said earlier also - if he's even capable of understanding his own posts.

107 posted on 06/29/2010 7:27:56 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: Stentor
The Martians blew up the World Trade Center?

I do not think cut and run said Martians blew it up. He said it was America's fault.
108 posted on 06/29/2010 7:30:55 AM PDT by John D
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To: P-Marlowe
The 16th was never ratified - tisket Since May 11, 2010

What is it with this high-school level you've only been around for a month - so, so so there idiocy?

I either have something worth saying or I don't. I stand by our founding fathers' original intent as expressed by them in our Constitution and the Declaration of Independence. I am anti-communist, anti-socialist, and anti-government dick-wads who think that because they're on the public dime and have a mandate to destroy America they're somehow above the rest of us.

I'll tell you what P-Marlowe, when you get out of high-school and develop some experience in conversing with adults, then we'll talk. Until then, you can lock yourself in the bathroom for a while like other teenage boys.

109 posted on 06/29/2010 7:39:22 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: olrtex

See post 107


110 posted on 06/29/2010 7:42:01 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: olrtex
“The 16th was never ratified - but being the feds, they just went ahead with collecting the money anyway.” Care to offer some support for that assertion?

See post 107

111 posted on 06/29/2010 7:42:51 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: tisket
What is it with this high-school level you've only been around for a month - so, so so there idiocy?

The 16th was ratified. Get over it. Either that or stand by your principles and refuse to pay it.

I dare you.

112 posted on 06/29/2010 7:44:49 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: olrtex
“The 16th was never ratified - but being the feds, they just went ahead with collecting the money anyway.” Care to offer some support for that assertion?

http://www.thelawthatneverwas.com/new/home.asp

113 posted on 06/29/2010 7:45:07 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: P-Marlowe
. . . sigh . . .

I guess I'll just have to wait until you graduate :)

114 posted on 06/29/2010 7:46:51 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: dragnet2

Ha ha! Yeah, that is becoming very apparent :)


115 posted on 06/29/2010 7:49:43 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: tisket; P-Marlowe
The point of the born on date bit is that we get a wash of DU trolls and Paultards running around here spouting off nutsoid things that make conservatives look like idiots.

Things like the 16th Amendment, a law of the books for nearly 100 years, wasn't ratified for example.

Those folks have a short shelf life, especially when they get saucy with the sane and conservative members of FR.

Anyways, do you really think if that was a viable argument you, Ron Paul and the other conspiracy types are the first ones to realize it since 1913 and will now single handeled make it null and void.

Crackpot will not save this land, conservatism, based in reality and working with in the realm of the possible, will.

116 posted on 06/29/2010 7:50:28 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
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To: tisket
I guess I'll just have to wait until you graduate :)

Unlike you, I graduated kindergarten.

Hey noob what is YOUR level of education?

I believe you have been making silly arguments with lawyers and other educated people who have been showing you your ignorance. Are you capable of learning?

117 posted on 06/29/2010 7:52:30 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
Hey P, you got an over/under on how long this Paultard batch lasts once we get in to the thick of the next election...

Sheesh, those were the days, being lectured about the Constitution and told how sorry a conservative I was by the surrender monkeys..

118 posted on 06/29/2010 7:53:42 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
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To: P-Marlowe
Never underestimate the Constitutional law prowess of a Starbucks employee stoned in his mom's basement eating Skittles while cruising the WWW...
119 posted on 06/29/2010 7:56:07 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
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To: ejonesie22
While it can be true that some just join a site to stir up trouble, like liberal shills hired by the Obama admin, there are also legitimate conservatives who have been reading Free Republic for many years and have just now decided to join in the good fight online, as it were. To lump all newcomers into the "DU" catagory is not only insulting to those who may be your allies, but foolish, because you would be alienating a kindred warrior.

As I said earlier, someone either has legitiamte points to make or they don't. And their join date is irrelevant to that purpose.

120 posted on 06/29/2010 7:58:53 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: citizenredstater9271

ping


121 posted on 06/29/2010 8:01:13 AM PDT by tisket (If someone yells "You Lie" in a room full of politicians, how do they know who he's talking to?)
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To: citizenredstater9271
I am very familiar with the Freestateproject. I have a cousin that is a freestater, attends PorcFest every year and has plans to move to NH in November.

Fortunately for me, Chris Christie is doing a bang up job here in NJ... better than a couple thousand freestaters can manage.

122 posted on 06/29/2010 8:04:16 AM PDT by Rodamala
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To: tisket
Or they have no clue what they are talking about and when schooled, keep arguing their crackpot crap anyways...

Like the Paultard crowd.

It is often hard to tell the difference since they both act in similar fashion, hence the “lumping” which has come from years of observation and experience for most of us.

As for the join in date, nothing keeps one from expressing anything due to joining time, but there is a level of decorum that says the newbie, especially one a little bit on the crackpot side, has to earn his stripes before he goes around spoutin’ off at the straights here...

We have found that leads to a short FR life span. There are reason that there are long time members who are a little on the extreme nutsy side and are allowed to arrogantly rant and hurl insults at the normal folk. They earned the right and folks got used to them and as such could blow off the crazy stuff an have fun with it.

So keep your head down for a bit, you could be worth a lot of laughs in the next cycle.

123 posted on 06/29/2010 8:12:38 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
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To: tisket; ejonesie22; wagglebee; xzins
As I said earlier, someone either has legitiamte points to make or they don't.

Unfortunately for you, you really haven't made very many "legitiamte" points.

BTW when you chastise people for being less educated than you, you'd better lern how to spel.

And their join date is irrelevant to that purpose.

Actually in many cases is does. People like you tend to get banned within a few months of their sign up date. Keep posting.

124 posted on 06/29/2010 8:26:56 AM PDT by P-Marlowe (LPFOKETT GAHCOEEP-w/o*)
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To: P-Marlowe
I always hate it when they are banned, we lose hours of entertainment...
125 posted on 06/29/2010 8:34:38 AM PDT by ejonesie22 (Christians: Stand for Christ or stand aside...)
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To: P-Marlowe; xzins; samiam1972; trisham; tisket
Actually in many cases is does. People like you tend to get banned within a few months of their sign up date. Keep posting.

That is even more true with MoRon Paul supporters who are also prone to repeating Planned Parenthood talking points.

126 posted on 06/29/2010 8:53:39 AM PDT by wagglebee ("A political party cannot be all things to all people." -- Ronald Reagan, 3/1/75)
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To: tisket

Looking for back-up from a fellow Paul supporter?


127 posted on 06/29/2010 9:02:47 AM PDT by trisham (Zen is not easy. It takes effort to attain nothingness. And then what do you have? Bupkis.)
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To: tisket

So, you believe it’s not Constitutional, but aren’t willing to push the case on your beliefs.

Thanks.


128 posted on 06/29/2010 9:02:58 AM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: tisket; P-Marlowe
I'll tell you what P-Marlowe, when you get out of high-school

Marlowe has his doctorate.

You're new. That's fine. You're conservative. That's double fine.

Newcomers are always wise to take things slow and learn the lay of the land.

Welcome to FR. Are you pro-life? pro-gun? pro-God?

129 posted on 06/29/2010 9:04:04 AM PDT by xzins (Retired Army Chaplain and proud of it. Those who truly support our troops pray for their victory!)
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To: ejonesie22
I hadn't seen a Paultard thread in a while.

I like to check and see how many new Paultards are infesting FR.

And what is it with Paultards and New Hamsphire? That place must be crawling with the Paulinati.

They must have a lot of Star Trek conventions or Code Pink rallies there or something.

130 posted on 06/29/2010 10:02:47 AM PDT by Allegra (Pablo is wily enough for all of us.)
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To: Allegra

I think they have a tinfoil plant there. They are trying to drum up as much business as possible.


131 posted on 06/29/2010 11:10:44 AM PDT by John D
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To: tisket; P-Marlowe

“...when you get out of high-school”

P-Marlowe, you and I must be in the same high-school class. I thought I’d left that behind 20 years ago but I got the same treatment a day or so ago. Can we be considered a clique now? :0)


132 posted on 06/29/2010 11:32:31 AM PDT by samiam1972 ("It is a poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."-Mother Teresa)
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To: John D
I do not think cut and run said Martians blew it up. He said it was America's fault.

Can't I have any fun?

133 posted on 06/29/2010 12:09:57 PM PDT by Stentor
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To: tisket; P-Marlowe; ejonesie22; Oceander
As I said earlier, someone either has legitiamte (sic) points to make or they don't. And their join date is irrelevant to that purpose.

Actually, in certain cases, it is relevant.

When someone who has recently joined FR comes out of the gate talking down to longtime, established FReepers simply because they do not like Ron Paul (and I'm one of those who does not like Ron Paul, BTW), it sends a message we've all seen too many times before. The Ron Paul crowd has a reputation for being nasty, insulting and condescending. Your calling people "trolls" and slinging insults does not do much to dispel that reputation; it only reinforces it.

If you want to be a kindred warrior, I suggest you address people here a little more respectfully.

134 posted on 06/29/2010 1:30:24 PM PDT by Allegra (My seventh chakra is oppressed.)
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To: ejonesie22
I don't support Mises' school. I support the words of the Founders.

Like it or not Dr. Paul is the only person in Washington who wants to get rid of bureaucracy and go back to the Constitution the way the Founders intended. Tell me then who else is better?

135 posted on 06/29/2010 1:55:28 PM PDT by citizenredstater9271
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To: Allegra

Us “Paultards” want to move to New Hampshire b/c unlike the rest of the country New Hampshire is the only place that’s not moving towards socialism and still has no income tax and no gun laws.


136 posted on 06/29/2010 2:03:39 PM PDT by citizenredstater9271
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To: PugetSoundSoldier

The Founders didn’t want an income tax or a national bank.


137 posted on 06/29/2010 2:57:36 PM PDT by citizenredstater9271
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To: citizenredstater9271; Allegra
Cut and run talks a lot doesn't he? Can you name one thing, in all the time he has been in Washington that he has ever actually accomplished? Other than getting as many earmarks as he can get his hands on, which he SAYS he is against.
138 posted on 06/29/2010 2:58:05 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D

Look I don’t agree with cut and run BUT I’m sick of politicians taxing me to death and Dr. Paul is the ONLY person in Washington against taxation.


139 posted on 06/29/2010 3:02:11 PM PDT by citizenredstater9271
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To: citizenredstater9271

They also didn’t want slavery to end or women to vote. Unfortunately they put in place a process where you can change the Constitution, and we have those pesky Amendments now, right?

I mean, we not only recognized the right to citizenship to anyone born on these shores, not only recognized the right of women to vote, not only ended slavery by recognizing every man’s inherent freedom, not only recognized the right of Government to tax income, but also recognized our rights to keep our mouths shut when dealing with the Government, to speak up when we want, not house soldiers, and to carry guns!

Yeah, without all those terrible changes to the Constitution we’d be a lot better off...

/sarc


140 posted on 06/29/2010 3:30:49 PM PDT by PugetSoundSoldier (Indignation over the Sting of Truth is the defense of the indefensible)
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To: citizenredstater9271
And what has he actually done, other than TALK? Talk is cheap.
141 posted on 06/29/2010 3:31:00 PM PDT by John D
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To: John D

What have others in Washington done besides raise taxes, spend spend spend, put judges on the Courts who WON’T overturn Roe v. Wade and HAVENT sealed up the borders.


142 posted on 06/29/2010 5:04:09 PM PDT by citizenredstater9271
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To: coon2000

Who pays for social security?
Medicare? Prescription drugs?

DO you plan on abolishing both?

Federal prisons are NOT paid by local governments.

How do you plan on stopping harmful imports such as the
Chinese dry walls which are making houses unlivable?


143 posted on 06/29/2010 5:08:50 PM PDT by Undocumented_capitalist (Obama never ran even a hot dog stand but now he is running the entire country?)
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To: citizenredstater9271

You want police, customs, immigration, roads etc handles by private enterprise? Wonderful! Now which private enterprise will do it for free? If not free then where will the money come from to pay them for services?


144 posted on 06/29/2010 5:11:58 PM PDT by Undocumented_capitalist (Obama never ran even a hot dog stand but now he is running the entire country?)
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To: tisket

You really want a lifestyle of pre-1912?

No cars, no cell phones, no MRI’s, no painless dentistry, no micro-surgery, no airplanes, no FDIC, no miracle drugs, no organ transplants, ....you get the idea.

Life is far more complex today compared to pre-1912.
I am not anxious to go back to that era.


145 posted on 06/29/2010 5:18:22 PM PDT by Undocumented_capitalist (Obama never ran even a hot dog stand but now he is running the entire country?)
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To: Undocumented_capitalist

Look, none of the roads, schools, police today are “free”. WE are forced to pay for all of that through gov. taxation. With businesses taking over services we’ll be free to choose what schools we want and what services we want without paying a dime to the corrupt bureaucrats in Washington. I’m not saying we need to get rid of all government I’m just saying the gov. needs to go back to it’s proper role which is defending our private property NOT interfering with our lives and taking our money.


146 posted on 06/29/2010 5:19:10 PM PDT by citizenredstater9271
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To: tisket
As I said earlier, a basic tenet of law is that there can be no contradiction. If this is something that is beyond your comprehension (or your pay grade) then any further explanation I can offer would be moot.

Under the original Constitution, whoever got the second most votes for President became the Vice President. The 12th Amendment changed this. Which one is in effect?

147 posted on 06/29/2010 5:19:54 PM PDT by Lurking Libertarian (Non sub homine, sed sub Deo et lege)
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To: citizenredstater9271

Paul will never get the backing of any major party in any presidential election because of his views. It would cost too much and take away the powers of those who try to rule us.

I like him, but he will never be able to take a presidential race with his views.


148 posted on 06/29/2010 5:39:12 PM PDT by Munz (All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent.)
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To: Munz
Paul will never get the backing of any major party in any presidential election because of his views. It would cost too much and take away the powers of those who try to rule us.

Exactly. Look at the way the gov. is set up these days. Greedy politicians working for themselves so they can get more power and money. They bail out the big guys instead of the little guys b/c they know they can get more tax money out of the big companies and then they can just put the little guy on welfare so he'll be more dependent on them. This is what America has turned into. Dr. Paul wants to bring it back to as it was originally intended.

149 posted on 06/29/2010 6:18:41 PM PDT by citizenredstater9271
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To: tisket
What do you do - sleep with the IRC under your pillow?

No, I don't, but perhaps you should try it (that, the Constitution, and while we're at it, a primer on the basic canons of statutory construction).

Speaking of insults, BTW, "IRS shill" is not exactly a compliment around here.

I'd be more than happy to discuss statutory construction with you - it's something I do quite a bit, and it most certainly is neither beyond my comprehension, nor my pay grade (metaphorically speaking - solos/of-counsels don't have "pay grades" properly speaking). To get that conversation started, I'll offer up the canon of interpretation that appears to apply to this instance:

Leges posteriores priores contrarias abrogant
(Subsequent laws repeal those before enacted to the contrary, aka "Last in Time")

When two statutes conflict, the one enacted last prevails.

See, e.g., Yule, Kim, Statutory Interpretation: General Principles and Recent Trends, CRS Report for Congress 97-589, at page 26 (Updated August 31, 2008, Order Code 97-589).

Applying that canon of construction to the situation at hand, and assuming arguendo that the 13th Amendment made no changes, explicit or penumbral, to the amending provisions of Article V, we arrive at the not unreasonable conclusion that, to the extent there is any conflict between the 13th Amendment and the 16th Amendment, the 16th Amendment, being the later in time, prevails over the 13th Amendment to the extent of any such conflict.

Your turn.
150 posted on 06/29/2010 6:43:14 PM PDT by Oceander (The Price of Freedom is Eternal Vigilance -- Thos. Jefferson)
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