Posted on 09/08/2010 2:20:52 PM PDT by Binstence
Good question. I would say if the world, by nature, hates goodness and truth, then it would hate you if you were good and truthful. But then, it’s the attitude that it hates. Our laws prevent people from punishing people because of an attitude, so it’s relatively safe to be good and truthful in America. Some people really do hate the goodness of others. And of course, nobobdy likes truth if it’s going to reveal their unrepented and secret sin. Non?
Which is what I argued to several Freepers.
OK, I get it. You have no interest in this conversation. Fine. Bye.
Well....yes but we have a direct and substantial troop presence in Iraq and keep the regime in power which makes it a somewhat different case.
“Is he as creepy as Jeremiah Wright,”
Your point?
Nutters are Nutters. Some are on the left, some are on the right, some are religious, some are non religious.....But they are all Nutters.
That is why I replied to you - we agreed.
Thanks. Too many have confused appeasement with not provoking them. And too many were willing to cause the deaths of innocents so that pastor could make a point.
Until you answer my question this conversation is dead. Bury it.
what question is that there has been so many different threads would you please ask it again and I will answere it.
OK, this isn’t rocket science, but it does require some fidelity to the principles of logic.
Foundation:
God exists, and has revealed his mind to us through Scripture. God is rational, and speaks a message to us that does not have internal contradictions. Therefore, he can never command us to love someone and hate someone at the same time and in the same way, because that is a logical impossibility.
The Command to Love the Brethren:
We know that we have been commanded to love one another as believers. Here is just one of many such passages:
1 John 4:11-13: “Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit.”
According to this passage, certainty that one is a Christian is a direct byproduct of having love for the brethren; it is evidence of God’s spirit in us. And it is not optional, but a command:
1 John 3:23: “And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment.”
Therefore, we must love our fellow believers. If our parents are believers, they are our brother and sister in Christ, and loving them is not optional, but a command.
The Command to Love Our Enemies:
What if one or both of our parents are unbelievers? Those who are not believers are alienated from God, and are the enemies of God:
Colossians 1:21-22: “And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight …”
If our nonbelieving parents are the enemies of God, they will also be our enemies, simply because we belong to God:
John 15:18-20: “If the world hates you, you know that it hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own. Yet because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you. If they kept My word, they will keep yours also.”
Therefore, the command to love our enemies applies to all who are not believers, including our nonbelieving parents:
Mat 5:43-44: “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you …”
The Question:
So, if you are saying that hating your parents under Luke 14:26 really means not loving them, whether as brothers or enemies, as commanded in the above passages, you are actually saying Christ is teaching us to disobey Christ, are you not?
If you’re saying we can’t obey the love commands, then you are also saying no one can be a Christian, because there is no choice in the matter, as I pointed out in the previous post. Love is what makes us know we are genuine Christians. As for whether it can be done, it depends on whether you use your own home-made definition of love or one that has a Scriptural definition. If you use some modern, situational definition, love is all about emotion and feeling. If you use a Biblical definition, love is an action anchored in reason and based on a choice we make to do good to someone.
And it can be done. I have seen it, and I have experienced it. BTW, there is nothing in the Biblical meaning of love that prevents me from defending my family, up to and including the use of lethal force when necessary. The slap on the cheek Christ mentions is a social insult, not an attack on family. We are to ignore insults, yes. However, did you know Jesus told the 12 disciples to own two swords? Again, God is not irrational. Sometimes love means defending the life of the people you have sworn to defend. The Apostle Paul teaches us you have to take care of your family or you’re worse than faithless. Harsh words, but defense of life is a form of love, and doing it fulfills the command to love.
So loving your enemy doesn’t mean you let them kill your family. Love isn’t about being a pushover. It’s about doing what’s good for someone else besides yourself. If my home is burglarized, and I have a chance to defend with a weapon, I can choose a defense that is hateful or a defense that keeps my family safe and maybe lets the burglar live, depending on the circumstances. I’ve been in situations where I had to make a choice in how I defended myself, and I’m still here to talk about it so it can’t have gone all that badly. Not saying there won’t be future challenges I mess up, but I’m just saying it’s the kind of thing you really can do right if you want to, if you try.
My favorite story in that regard was one I heard on Moody radio several years ago. A missionary in Mogadishu had been experiencing a wonderful series of opportunities to bring the gospel to a hardened Islamic community, and miraculous conversions were occurring, even an unexpected public miracle of healing of a young Shiite girl in the name of Jesus. But our enemy Satan doesn’t take days off, and there was a violent counterattack, a car bomb or a drive-by shooting or something (I can’t remember), and as the missionary held his injured wife in his arms, her dying words to him were that he should love those who had just attacked them and continue the work of the gospel.
I pray to God that I, if my faith were tested that way, would rise to that standard and love as that beautiful spirit loved. Because in one sense you’re right. We can’t love like that as mere mortals. Love like that is a miracle, and only God can put it in your heart to do it. But I do believe in such miracles, because I believe in a God who is rational, and powerful, and full of love to those who do not deserve it, like me.
Jeremiah Wright was the personal mentor of our President for 20 years. The President was much more emphatic in denouncing the actions of this guy over burning a koran than he ever was over Jeremiah Wright.
He said that he couldn’t disown the guy.
We were told that preachers don’t really matter. So what is it?
Obama is no Christian. His so called church was no religious center. If it’s okay for the muslims to say the radical muslims don’t really follow Islam then I can equally state that Wright (a former muslim) is not following Christianity.
You can seek legal justice at the same time as you “love” even those who do you wrong.
Pray for a change of their heart.
By the way, it’s okay for muslims to pray prayers of conversion hoping everyone will go muslim but when a Christian does it, it’s considered “offensive”.
Um, I think you entirely missed my point, didn’t you? The Judas example I gave shows how even you must resort to using the ordinary rules of language and logic to get at the right meaning of a text. And you did, didn’t you. That’s because God doesn’t write gibberish.BTW, I notice you never address the commands we are under as believers to 1) love each other as believers, and 2) to love our enemies. Why not? Because to do so would show the weakness of your argument, would show there is no escape, for the Christian, from loving your parents. And if you admit you should love your parents, you must either 1) accuse God of contradicting himself, or 2) admit to a legitimate variation in the use and meaning of “hate” in that context.
Rule 4: Make the enemy live up to its own book of rules - Saul Alinsky's Rules For Radicals
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