FReeper Book Club: The Debate over the Constitution, Federalist #47

A Publius/Billthedrill Essay | 9 September 2010 | Publius & Billthedrill

[Publius]

Ping! The thread has been posted.

Earlier threads:

FReeper Book Club: The Debate over the Constitution
5 Oct 1787, Centinel #1
6 Oct 1787, James Wilson’s Speech at the State House
8 Oct 1787, Federal Farmer #1
9 Oct 1787, Federal Farmer #2
18 Oct 1787, Brutus #1
22 Oct 1787, John DeWitt #1
27 Oct 1787, John DeWitt #2
27 Oct 1787, Federalist #1
31 Oct 1787, Federalist #2
3 Nov 1787, Federalist #3
5 Nov 1787, John DeWitt #3
7 Nov 1787, Federalist #4
10 Nov 1787, Federalist #5
14 Nov 1787, Federalist #6
15 Nov 1787, Federalist #7
20 Nov 1787, Federalist #8
21 Nov 1787, Federalist #9
23 Nov 1787, Federalist #10
24 Nov 1787, Federalist #11
27 Nov 1787, Federalist #12
27 Nov 1787, Cato #5
28 Nov 1787, Federalist #13
29 Nov 1787, Brutus #4
30 Nov 1787, Federalist #14
1 Dec 1787, Federalist #15
4 Dec 1787, Federalist #16
5 Dec 1787, Federalist #17
7 Dec 1787, Federalist #18
8 Dec 1787, Federalist #19
11 Dec 1787, Federalist #20
12 Dec 1787, Federalist #21
14 Dec 1787, Federalist #22
18 Dec 1787, Federalist #23
18 Dec 1787, Address of the Pennsylvania Minority
19 Dec 1787, Federalist #24
21 Dec 1787, Federalist #25
22 Dec 1787, Federalist #26
25 Dec 1787, Federalist #27
26 Dec 1787, Federalist #28
27 Dec 1787, Brutus #6
28 Dec 1787, Federalist #30
1 Jan 1788, Federalist #31
3 Jan 1788, Federalist #32
3 Jan 1788, Federalist #33
3 Jan 1788, Cato #7
4 Jan 1788, Federalist #34
5 Jan 1788, Federalist #35
8 Jan 1788, Federalist #36
10 Jan 1788, Federalist #29
11 Jan 1788, Federalist #37
15 Jan 1788, Federalist #38
16 Jan 1788, Federalist #39
18 Jan 1788, Federalist #40
19 Jan 1788, Federalist #41
22 Jan 1788, Federalist #42
23 Jan 1788, Federalist #43
24 Jan 1788, Brutus #10
25 Jan 1788, Federalist #44
26 Jan 1788, Federalist #45
29 Jan 1788, Federalist #46
31 Jan 1788, Brutus #11

[Loud Mime]

IBTP, OK Bill, I’m reading it now

[GoCards]

Good Morning! Is this an on-going discussion regarding the Federalist Papers?, bought the book and is a difficult read, this will be helpful.

[Publius]

Yes. Check Post #2 for links, or click on “FReeper Book Club” on the upper right of the News Forum page.

[GoCards]

Outstanding. Thank you. If you are keeper of the Ping list, please add me.

[Bigun]

"The Federal Government is the creature of the States. It is not a party to the Constitution, but the result of it the creation of that agreement which was made by the States as parties. It is a mere agent, entrusted with limited powers for certain specific objects; which powers and objects are enumerated in the Constitution. Shall the agent be permitted to judge the extent of its own powers, without reference to his constituent? To a certain extent, he is compelled to do this, in the very act of exercising them, but always in subordination to the authority by whom his powers were conferred. If this were not so, the result would be, that the agent would possess every power which the agent could confer, notwithstanding the plainest and most express terms of the grant. This would be against all principle and all reason. If such a rule would prevail in regard to government, a written constitution would be the idlest thing imaginable. It would afford no barrier against the usurpations of the government, and no security for the rights and liberties of the people. If then the Federal Government has no authority to judge, in the last resort, of the extent of its own powers, with what propriety can it be said that a single department of that government may do so? Nay. It is said that this department may not only judge for itself, but for the other departments also. This is an absurdity as pernicious as it is gross and palpable. If the judiciary may determine the powers of the Federal Government, it may pronounce them either less or more than they really are. "

Abel Upshur Secretary of the Navy 1841-43

If I worked for a month I could not say it any better than that!

[Billthedrill]

A BTT for the morning crowd. The further we get into this project the more it astounds me not that balance and compromise were constituents of the Constitutional structure - that much was obvious from the outset - but that the specific balances and compromises chosen have functioned as well as they have for so long. Nearly everyone involved on both sides of the debate appears to realize that the government must change, must accrete power, and the challenge becomes more one of forming that progress than preventing it altogether. That isn't surprising inasmuch as the very least the most conservative anti-Federalists expected was a major amendment of the Articles of Confederation.

It is not, therefore, the Constitution that is a "living document," it is the government it controls, and just as with cell growth, where the control mechanisms for growth are corrupted natural growth can become cancer. It isn't the happiest of metaphors but it'll do for now.

[Jacquerie]

Our Constitution was, and is a radical departure from the existing forms of foreign governments. However, it was not a radical departure from the American experience.

From 1607 onward, the distant British colonies were forced to organize themselves into largely self governing entities for the sake of defense against French and Indian depredations and for commerce. Left to govern themselves during the English Civil War in a near Lochean state of nature, colonial and municipal governments developed varying modes of legislative, executive and judicial departments.

Upon revolt from Britain the states were more than ready to formally adopt freedom loving and government limiting constitutions. As Madison outlines, their structures were remarkably similar.

Our Constitution was therefore not a flash in the pan, nor a passing whimsy. What Montesquieu theorized was already well underway across the Atlantic.

No, our Constitution was and is a uniquely AMERICAN form of government, developed over 180 years, rooted in Natural Law and suitable only for a virtuous people jealous to defend their God given rights.

[Bigun]

...and suitable only for a virtuous people jealous to defend their God given rights.

Which we have done a very poor job of in my estimation.

[Loud Mime]

Interesting comment by you, and I like the anology.

But there is one thing about government cells that our standard cells do not have: government cells do not die. They survive and grow, and multiply. Government cells do not go through stages of life (infancy, adoescence, old age and termination), and they never are lean; they bloat with age.

Their life cycle is the citizens' fault. We should be weeding out the old growth by putting a sunset on every bureau and every office within that bureau. The same with every tax, tax raise, or regulation.

Our distancing ourselves from constitutional principles is this nation's biggest problem; and the reason is obvious: George Mason hit the nail on the head with this section of his "Virginia Declaration of Rights:"

XV That no free government, or the blessings of liberty, can be preserved to any people but by a firm adherence to justice, moderation, temperance, frugality, and virtue and by frequent recurrence to fundamental principles."

It is time for our citizens to recoginize the importance of that last clause.

[Publius]

Left to govern themselves during the English Civil War in a near Lochean state of nature, colonial and municipal governments developed varying modes of legislative, executive and judicial departments.

Interesting observation. In his collection of short stories titled Mosses from an Old Manse, Nathaniel Hawthorne wrote a story titled "Endicott and the Red Cross" which takes place during this period of upheaval in Salem, Massachusetts.

[Bigun]

http://www.house.gov/brady/sunset_overview.html

Primary sponsor: My congressman Kevin Brady.

[definitelynotaliberal]

You’re right that it’s not a happy metaphor, but I haven’t seen it said better because it paints a most vivid picture.

[Loud Mime]

Every session of congress sees sunset and sunlight proposals, yet they never go anywhere but the round file.

[Bigun]

Every session of congress sees sunset and sunlight proposals, yet they never go anywhere but the round file.

Yeah! I know! Why do you suppose that is?

[Jacquerie]

While I stopped listening to Neal Boortz some time ago, he got one thing right. The NEA/government schools represent a threat greater than Islam. It will be tough to go back to a Constitutional republic as long as statists get to pollute the minds of the young.

“The best laws, though sanctioned by every citizen of the state, will be of no avail unless the young are trained by habit and education in the spirit of the constitution.” - Aristotle

Yeah, a poor job indeed.

[Jacquerie]

Thanks. I'll have to check it out. French foreign policy v. the English colonies in the 17th century was ruthless.

Have you read Frothingham’s 1872, “The Rise of the Republic of the United States?” Its available in pdf from Cornell U.

[Publius]

I’ll have to take a look at it. Thanks.

[CPT Clay]

Thanks.