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Op-Ed Columnist: Is This America?
The New York Times / nytimes.com ^ | Published: September 11, 2010 | By NICHOLAS D. KRISTOF

Posted on 09/12/2010 10:23:11 AM PDT by thecodont

For a glimpse of how venomous and debased the discourse about Islam has become, consider a blog post in The New Republic this month. Written by Martin Peretz, the magazine’s editor in chief, it asserted: “Frankly, Muslim life is cheap, most notably to Muslims.”

Mr. Peretz added: “I wonder whether I need honor these people and pretend that they are worthy of the privileges of the First Amendment, which I have in my gut the sense that they will abuse.”

Thus a prominent American commentator, in a magazine long associated with tolerance, ponders whether Muslims should be afforded constitutional freedoms. Is it possible to imagine the same kind of casual slur tossed off about blacks or Jews? How do America’s nearly seven million American Muslims feel when their faith is denounced as barbaric?

This is one of those times that test our values, a bit like the shameful interning of Japanese-Americans during World War II, or the disgraceful refusal to accept Jewish refugees from Nazi Europe.

It would have been natural for this test to have come right after 9/11, but it was forestalled because President George W. Bush pushed back at his conservative ranks and repeatedly warned Americans not to confuse Al Qaeda with Islam.

Now that Mr. Bush is no longer in the White House, nativists are back on the warpath. Some opponents of President Obama are circulating bald-faced lies about him that are also scurrilous attacks on Islam itself. One e-mail bouncing around falsely accuses Mr. Obama of lying and adds, “His Muslim faith says it’s okay to lie.”

(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...


TOPICS: Constitution/Conservatism; Editorial; Foreign Affairs; War on Terror
KEYWORDS: 911; groundzeromosque; islam; muslims; neocon; neocons; sharia

1 posted on 09/12/2010 10:23:13 AM PDT by thecodont
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To: thecodont

Take a deep breath.


2 posted on 09/12/2010 10:23:40 AM PDT by thecodont
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To: thecodont
Oh yes, must not actually speak truth when the truth does not fit the ideological dogmas of the Progressive Fascist machine
3 posted on 09/12/2010 10:24:22 AM PDT by MNJohnnie (The problem with Socialism is sooner or later you run out of other people's money. Lady Thatcher)
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To: thecodont

A leftist rag using a quote from a leftist rag to bash anyone who opposes Shariah


4 posted on 09/12/2010 10:28:20 AM PDT by GeronL (http://libertyfic.proboards.com <--- My Fiction/ Science Fiction Board)
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To: thecodont

Daily earning their reputation as the New York SLIMES!!


5 posted on 09/12/2010 10:28:57 AM PDT by Momto2 (The two essential premises of all atheism: 1-God does not exist. 2-I hate Him.)
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To: thecodont

You have to register for the NY Times in order to comment on his blog. I think the Times is getting desperate for people to sign up because they are being more provocative, and it’s free. I don’t know if it was always free, but it’s free now. I think the best thing we can do is ignore these folks. Because they don’t care if they offend or not, what they care about is getting enough hits to seduce advertisers into believing they are worth investing in.


6 posted on 09/12/2010 10:29:03 AM PDT by A_perfect_lady (Instead of building a grand mosque at Ground Zero, let's build a Ground Zero at their Grand Mosque.)
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To: thecodont

How do America’s nearly seven million American Muslims feel when their faith is denounced as barbaric?

Many of them feel outed. Exposed. And they feel embarrassed and defiant.


7 posted on 09/12/2010 10:29:46 AM PDT by flowerplough (Thomas Sowell: Those who look only at Obama's deeds tend to become Obama's critics.)
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To: thecodont

Actually his “insulting Islam as a recruiting tool” argument is essentially the same as Sean Hannity’s.


8 posted on 09/12/2010 10:34:41 AM PDT by Oshkalaboomboom
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To: A_perfect_lady

“I think the best thing we can do is ignore these folks.”

To paraphrase:

Never wrestle with a pig. You both get dirty and the pig likes it.


9 posted on 09/12/2010 10:34:57 AM PDT by Owl558 ("Those who remember George Satayana are doomed to repeat him")
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To: thecodont
Is it possible to imagine the same kind of casual slur tossed off about blacks or Jews?

Any culture/religion of violence in either of those groups? If so (e.g. Black Panthers), that needs to be dealt with.

How do America’s nearly seven million American Muslims feel when their faith is denounced as barbaric?

Why not ask them? And while you're at it, ask them whether they're willing to renounce the barbaric aspects of their religion, and willing to denounce and expose the barbarians among them. If they'll do so, then they too can be part of our free country.

This is one of those times that test our values, a bit like the shameful interning of Japanese-Americans during World War II, or the disgraceful refusal to accept Jewish refugees from Nazi Europe.

It may come as a shock to the non-thinking among us, but one size doesn't fit all. To lump everyone and every situation together is the flaw in both "zero tolerance" edicts and in this lazy idiot's diatribe. Responsible people don't take the easy way out.
10 posted on 09/12/2010 10:35:46 AM PDT by LearsFool ("Thou shouldst not have been old, till thou hadst been wise.")
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To: thecodont
Some opponents of President Obama are circulating bald-faced lies about him that are also scurrilous attacks on Islam itself. One e-mail bouncing around falsely accuses Mr. Obama of lying and adds, “His Muslim faith says it’s okay to lie.”

So being Islamic is a wonderful thing and we should be nice to Muslims...but claiming Obama is a Muslim is so awful it has the author reeling over what's become of America.

Uh, I guess I'm missing something.

11 posted on 09/12/2010 10:36:11 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. -- written by Robert Towne)
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To: thecodont
the shameful interning of Japanese-Americans during World War II, or the disgraceful refusal to accept Jewish refugees from Nazi Europe

Too bad we didn't have a Democrat in the White House when those things occurred, or they never would have happened, right?

12 posted on 09/12/2010 10:37:21 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. -- written by Robert Towne)
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To: thecodont
Take a deep breath.

Don't be a killjoy, libs love nothing more than getting into full "You people are all evil, and I'm the only voice for the downtrodden in this wretched land!" mode.

13 posted on 09/12/2010 10:38:33 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. -- written by Robert Towne)
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To: thecodont
How do America’s nearly seven million American Muslims feel when their faith is denounced as barbaric?

Probably about the same as America's chr*stians feel when the libs at the NYT make fun of them.

14 posted on 09/12/2010 10:39:12 AM PDT by Zionist Conspirator (Shabbat Shabbaton hi' lakhem ve`inniytem 'et-nafshoteykhem; chuqqat `olam.)
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To: thecodont
"How do America’s nearly seven million American Muslims feel when their faith is denounced as barbaric?"

LOL...it makes them want to chop off heads and blow shit up.

15 posted on 09/12/2010 10:39:42 AM PDT by Joe 6-pack (Que me amat, amet et canem meum)
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To: thecodont

I agree with the writer to a point.Fortunately we have a Constitution to protect us all from government abuse.

Imagine if the Muslims were a majority population here.We would be forced into converting to Islam.

With Muslims I believe in Ronald Reagan’s maxim,Trust but verify in everything they do.


16 posted on 09/12/2010 10:40:10 AM PDT by puppypusher (The World is going to the dogs.)
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To: thecodont
President George W. Bush pushed back at his conservative ranks and repeatedly warned Americans not to confuse Al Qaeda with Islam.

I love how the libs have, after NINE YEARS finally admitted to liking SOMEthing about Bush, NINE YEARS after he could have used a little support.

How he could be such a boob, so anti-woman for his pro-life position, so stupid for talking about Jesus, and yet AT THE SAME TIME show such moral bravery and rise above the very people the libs claim controlled him, never seems to trouble them.

Liberalism truly is the religion of those who think with their emotions.

17 posted on 09/12/2010 10:43:09 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. -- written by Robert Towne)
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To: thecodont

“I wonder whether I need honor these people and pretend that they are worthy of the privileges of the First Amendment, which I have in my gut the sense that they will abuse.”

Funny, you weren’t so bent out of shape when people called Bush a Nazi, made a film and jokes on TV about assassinating him, and when Obama called the majority of people in this country dopes for clinging to THEIR religion. But one person PONDERS something, and it’s “OH WHAT A WORLD!!!!!”


18 posted on 09/12/2010 10:45:12 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. -- written by Robert Towne)
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To: thecodont

“when their faith is denounced as barbaric”

Muslims stone people to death. Dwell on that. The victim is restrained so they can’t move and then one or more people start throwing large rocks at them until they’re dead. Other people are standing around watching and approving. This is not a criminal act in their society. It is a legally inflicted punishment.

I emphasize, this is not an individual’s barbarism. It is part of their society.


19 posted on 09/12/2010 10:45:50 AM PDT by frposty (I'm a simpleton)
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To: Darkwolf377
I love how the libs have, after NINE YEARS finally admitted to liking SOMEthing about Bush, NINE YEARS after he could have used a little support.

It's interesting, but in a related op-ed in the same newspaper, someone of Iranian heritage wonders whether things were better under President Bush.

http://www.nytimes.com/2010/09/12/opinion/12khakpour.html

20 posted on 09/12/2010 10:48:21 AM PDT by thecodont
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To: thecodont

The blog post commie kristoff is bitching about was written by Martin Peretz, Algore’s bestest buddy and another bigtime leftie. The irony is delicious. I’d love to see these sissies in a slap-fight.


21 posted on 09/12/2010 10:51:17 AM PDT by ozzymandus
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To: thecodont
Well, the author starts off quoting the editor of the New Republic, a liberal opinion magazine, Martin Peretz, who has been tight with Al Gore for decades. Then he veers off with this:

"It would have been natural for this test to have come right after 9/11, but it was forestalled because President George W. Bush pushed back at his conservative ranks and repeatedly warned Americans not to confuse Al Qaeda with Islam."

Ah, Peretz is an ueber-liberal. Rather than the predictable and tired slam at conservatives, the more interesting question is: 'What would bring a liberal's liberal like Martin Peretz to view Muslims as he described?'

The author's explanation is just an amorphous action that somehow our political atmosphere has become poisoned and degraded.

OK then, make your case, how did it come to this.

22 posted on 09/12/2010 10:52:32 AM PDT by Jabba the Nutt (Are they insane, stupid or just evil?)
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To: thecodont
Thanks for that, but I got this far...

" He added: “The face of terror is not the true faith of Islam. That’s not what Islam is all about. Islam is peace.” Did that assurance mean more to white Americans coming from someone who looked like them?"

Then I groaned "Oh, BROTHER" and closed the window.

I'm watching EL CID, coincidentally (seriously, I just grabbed something and put it on).

(Those who know the movie will understand why this is an interesting coincidence.)

23 posted on 09/12/2010 10:52:39 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. -- written by Robert Towne)
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To: thecodont

there is one thing about it, when it goes down, people like that are going down with them


24 posted on 09/12/2010 10:54:19 AM PDT by SF_Redux
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To: thecodont
BTW, regarding that other columnist, who writes about being Muslim, did you notice the title of the book he wrote?

“Sons and Other Flammable Objects,”

Ahem...

25 posted on 09/12/2010 10:54:25 AM PDT by Darkwolf377 (Forget it, Jake. It's Chinatown. -- written by Robert Towne)
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To: MNJohnnie; All
Oh yes, must not actually speak truth when the truth does not fit the ideological dogmas of the Progressive Fascist machine

Great post in a great thread.

26 posted on 09/12/2010 10:56:08 AM PDT by PGalt
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To: All

27 posted on 09/12/2010 10:58:52 AM PDT by Liz
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To: thecodont
Marty Peretz's longtime liberal activism and Al Gore friendship will count for nothing. He is going to be slowly roasted over the coals for daring to say that Muslim social and political practices place them outside First Amendment protections.

For the left, thus is blasphemy of blasphemies. They immediately invoke the worst kinds of discrimination.

Is it possible to imagine the same kind of casual slur tossed off about blacks or Jews?.

I don't recall non-Muslim blacks or Jews murdering 3000 Americans at a pop, and working hard to do it again.

How do America’s nearly seven million American Muslims feel when their faith is denounced as barbaric?

As always for liberals, "feelings" trump all.

28 posted on 09/12/2010 10:58:57 AM PDT by denydenydeny ("Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil." Thomas Mann)
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To: Joe 6-pack

Who cares how muslims feel. They do not belong here in the USA with our republican constitutional form of government and freedoms. Their “religion” and level of civilization are rooted in a barbaric 9th century theistic social code. They skipped feudalism, revolution, reformation, renaissance, the enlightenment, the industrial age, and the information age. Muslims are completely unequipped to live peaceably in western society. I lived in Cairo for 3 years - my conclusion was that exposure to western culture makes muslims insane, due to the direct and extreme conflict with their social code. So, as you say, they blow shit up, abuse their women etc.


29 posted on 09/12/2010 10:59:12 AM PDT by FlyingEagle
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To: thecodont
One e-mail bouncing around falsely accuses Mr. Obama of lying...

[words fail me]

30 posted on 09/12/2010 11:06:39 AM PDT by null and void (We are now in day 596 of our national holiday from reality. - 0bama really isn't one of US.)
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To: Cindy; SJackson; fieldmarshaldj; Impy

I am surprised that The New Republic would publish an article in radical Islam which The New York Times would attak as intolerant. I admit that there are some non-political Muslims in the U.S. who or whose ancestors came here to escape the politicized Sharia of their homelands and who don’t support terrorism. But there are all too many here who do and wish to destroy us. We have to deal with that reality or that reality will deal with us, and ruthlessly.


31 posted on 09/12/2010 11:07:42 AM PDT by Clintonfatigued (Obama's more worried about Israelis building houses than he is about Islamists building atomic bombs)
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To: A_perfect_lady

If the NY Times is free, it’s still way overpriced.


32 posted on 09/12/2010 11:11:13 AM PDT by mike-zed
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To: thecodont
When in doubt about America's Constitutional foundations in restraining government from interfering with religious faith and practice (First Amendment), perhaps the words of some of the Founders might inform any discussion about "toleration":

"The declaration that religious faith shall be unpunished does not give immunity to criminal acts dictated by religious error." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1788. ME 7:98

"If anything pass in a religious meeting seditiously and contrary to the public peace, let it be punished in the same manner and no otherwise than as if it had happened in a fair or market." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:548

"It is time enough for the rightful purposes of civil government, for its officers to interfere [in the propagation of religious teachings] when principles break out into overt acts against peace and good order." --Thomas Jefferson: Statute for Religious Freedom, 1779. ME 2:302, Papers 2:546

"Whatsoever is lawful in the Commonwealth or permitted to the subject in the ordinary way cannot be forbidden to him for religious uses; and whatsoever is prejudicial to the Commonwealth in their ordinary uses and, therefore, prohibited by the laws, ought not to be permitted to churches in their sacred rites. For instance, it is unlawful in the ordinary course of things or in a private house to murder a child; it should not be permitted any sect then to sacrifice children. It is ordinarily lawful (or temporarily lawful) to kill calves or lambs; they may, therefore, be religiously sacrificed. But if the good of the State required a temporary suspension of killing lambs, as during a siege, sacrifices of them may then be rightfully suspended also. This is the true extent of toleration." --Thomas Jefferson: Notes on Religion, 1776. Papers 1:547

"Our wish... is, that the public efforts may be directed honestly to the public good, that peace be cultivated, civil and religious liberty unassailed, law and order preserved, equality of rights maintained, and that state of property, equal or unequal, which results to every man from his own industry, or that of his fathers." --Thomas Jefferson: 2nd Inaugural, 1805. ME 3:382

The Founders did, however, recognize that the philosophical underpinnings of various nations influenced what they called "the laws of nations." An example of this recognition can be found in these excerpted paragraphs from President John Quincy's record of the history of the Republic as he delivered them in New York City on April 30, 1839, in his "Jubilee" Address.

“The motive for the Declaration of Independence was on its face avowed to be "a decent respect for the opinions of mankind." Its purpose to declare the causes which impelled the people of the English colonies on the continent of North America, to separate themselves from the political community of the British nation. They declare only, the causes of their separation, but they announce at the same time their assumption of the separate and equal station to which the laws of nature and of nature's God entitle them, among the powers of the earth.

“Thus their first movement is to recognize and appeal to the laws of nature and to nature's God, for their right to assume the attributes of sovereign power as an independent nation.

“The causes of their necessary separation, for they begin and end by declaring it necessary, alleged in the Declaration, are all founded on the same laws of nature and of nature's God - and hence as preliminary to the enumeration of the causes of separation, they set forth as self-evident truths, the rights of individual man, by the laws of nature and of nature's God, to life, to liberty, to the pursuit of happiness. That all men are created equal. That to secure the rights of life, liberty and the pursuits of happiness, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. All this is by the laws of nature and of nature's God, and of course presupposes the existence of a God, the moral ruler of the universe, and a rule of right and wrong, of just and unjust, binding upon man, preceding all institutions of human society and of government. It avers, also, that governments are instituted to secure these rights of nature and of nature's God, and that whenever any form of government becomes destructive of those ends, it is the right of THE PEOPLE to alter, or to abolish it, and to institute a new government - to throw off a government degenerating into despotism, and to provide new guards for their future security. They proceed then to say that such was then the situation of the Colonies, and such the necessity which constrained them to alter their former systems of government.”

Adams continued:

____________________

“The Declaration of Independence recognized the European law of nations, as practiced among Christian nations, to be that by which they considered themselves bound, and of which they claimed the rights. This system is founded upon the principle, that the state of nature between men and between nations, is a state of peace."

He added:

"But there was a Mahometan law of nations, which considered the state of nature as a state of war - an Asiatic law of nations, which excluded all foreigners from admission within the territories of the state - a colonial law of nations, which excluded all foreigners from admission within the colonies - and a savage Indian law of nations, by which the Indian tribes within the bounds of the United States, were under their protection, though in a condition of undefined dependence upon the governments of the separate states. With all these different communities, the relations of the United States were from the time when they had become an independent nation, variously modified according to the operation of those various laws. It was the purpose of the Constitution of the United States to establish justice over them all."

Read the entire address, here.

33 posted on 09/12/2010 11:17:54 AM PDT by loveliberty2
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To: thecodont

Muslims are here for one reason, and it isn’t assimillation. It’s domination. They make up about 3% (at most) of the population and look how they already shape the agenda. They don’t belong here.


34 posted on 09/12/2010 11:23:22 AM PDT by clintonh8r ("Let them eat lobster cake." Michelle Antoinette, vacation #6.)
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To: loveliberty2

Thank you for the important historic quotes from our Founders.


35 posted on 09/12/2010 11:28:10 AM PDT by thecodont
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To: Oshkalaboomboom

Much of it is not an insult: It’s all espoused in the Holy Koran.


36 posted on 09/12/2010 11:32:14 AM PDT by upcountryhorseman (An old fashioned conservative)
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To: thecodont

Hey, Nick, you hate America so much? Move!


37 posted on 09/12/2010 11:34:43 AM PDT by mort56
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To: thecodont

The muzzies murder over 3000 innocent Americans on ONE DAY and Americans are the ones who are “venonmous”. All those years of doing recreational drugs are finally catching up with these people.


38 posted on 09/12/2010 11:35:57 AM PDT by FlingWingFlyer (Algore is a politician and a con artist. He is NOT a scientist.)
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To: thecodont
These idiots don't realize and would never agree that militant Islam is like Super Communism. It never intends to coexist with any other religion except as the dominant one.

It may be the Muslims have learned to couch their activities in the forms of the Civil Rights Movement be certain equality is the last thing on their minds.

------------------------------

Taqiyya (Lying in Islam IS formally and Religiously condoned.)

------------------------------

Number of Muslims in the United States

"...Q. How many Muslims are in the United States?

A. According to an academic review of available survey-based data in 2001, informed by information provided by Muslim organizations and mosques, the highest reasonable total number of Muslims in the United States is 2.8 million.

A more realistic number, supported by statistically significant survey data comparable to what has been used to to calculate the sizes of other religious groups, is less than 2 million Muslims in the United States, or about 0.5% of the total population.

Estimates of the U.S. Muslim population of 6 million, 8 million, 10 million or more may indeed be correct, but are not supported by empirical data. Such numbers may best be understood as "spiritual (ie. BS) " numbers, rather than actual numbers..."

Nicholas Kristof grew up on a sheep farm. He should never have left.

39 posted on 09/12/2010 11:55:11 AM PDT by Anti-Bubba182
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Kristof is in dhimmi mode.

Andrew Roberts destroys him here: http://bit.ly/9WNBVA


40 posted on 09/12/2010 12:52:50 PM PDT by Competition clutch
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To: thecodont

There is such a thing as fraud, misrepresentation of evil terror cults, prostitution houses promoting whores to nuisance and terror levels, and government islamic liberal fraud, AND IT AINT FREE SPEECH.


41 posted on 09/12/2010 1:18:14 PM PDT by JudgemAll (Democrates Fed. job-security Whorocracy & hate:hypocrites must be gay like us or be tested/crucified)
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To: thecodont

Your new tolerant liberalism siding with terror. Good thing their trash values are now being packed alongside islamic terror. We needed that verification. Thank you Zero, thank you lamestream media, thank you communists, thank you liberals, for all of you making that point clear now.


42 posted on 09/12/2010 1:20:07 PM PDT by JudgemAll (Democrates Fed. job-security Whorocracy & hate:hypocrites must be gay like us or be tested/crucified)
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To: flowerplough
“...America’s nearly seven million American Muslims ...”

what was the Muslim population on 9/11/01???

and how they been able to grow it so fast??

43 posted on 09/12/2010 1:49:06 PM PDT by elpadre (AfganistaMr Obama said the goal was to "disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaeda" and its allies.)
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To: Jabba the Nutt
Why would Peretz have a negative view of Muslims? Easy question. His love of Israel. The New Republic has been strongly pro-Israel for decades. (That is, I assume it still is--it has been a long time since I've looked at an issue.)

Nicholas Kristof played a major role in the unjustified hounding of Steven Hatfill (Kristof decided he was the person responsible for the anthrax killings shortly after the 9/11 attacks). Hatfill was innocent but went through hell because of Kristof and a few others.

44 posted on 09/12/2010 2:04:14 PM PDT by Verginius Rufus
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To: thecodont

Why do I find the need to post this so often today?

Tolerance is the last and only virtue of the completely immoral society.


45 posted on 09/12/2010 2:41:30 PM PDT by CynicalBear
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To: thecodont

Muslims have had many chances to condemn those who were murdering in their name.

But...

They only blamed those being murdered...

That’s all I need to know.


46 posted on 09/12/2010 9:26:31 PM PDT by DB
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To: Joe 6-pack

LMFAO


47 posted on 09/13/2010 8:10:48 AM PDT by expatguy (Support "An American Expat in Southeast Asia" - DONATE)
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