Skip to comments.Lincoln the Tyrant: The Libertarians' Favorite Bogeyman
Posted on 12/07/2010 11:31:03 AM PST by presidio9
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How so? Specifics please.
Nah, this was all settled in the movie Gettysburgh. The dialogue between Lieutenant Thomas D. Chamberlain and the Confederate prisoner explained everybody's motivations. It was about slavery. And preserving the Union. And state's rats (rights). See? Everybody's right. No struggle.
Lieutenant Thomas D. Chamberlain:
I don't mean no disrespect to you fighting men, but sometimes I can't help but figure... why you fightin' this war?
Confederate prisoner: Why are you?
Lieutenant Thomas D. Chamberlain: To free the slaves, of course. And preserve the Union.
Confederate prisoner: I don't know about other folk, but I ain't fighting for no darkies one way or the other. I'm fightin' for my rights. All of us here, that's what we're fighting for. [pronounces it 'rats']
For 10 years now you have been one of my private heros on this website. Time to take my feelings public. I don’t care what they say.
That's like saying the U.S. was at fault for not settling the fallout from the Pearl Harbor attack by diplomacy. The confederacy chose war. Lincoln fought the war that they forced on him.
Did you happen to notice that was a BRITISH slave ship, not American?
Should Lincoln (or a previous President) invaded Britain?
Are you aware that the SLAVE TRADE using American ships had been abolished long before the Civil War? Did you also happen to know that before that New England pay-rolled and provided the slave ships, not the South?
If anyone chose war it was the "Goon" himself, read his second inaugural again, Para. 2.
Abortion is the slavery of the 21st century and I am an abolitionist.
Abortion is not slavery. It is infanticide, the slaughter of innocents for self satisfaction. Abortion is the greatest crime of all. It destroys the future by destroying the present. There is no greater evil than abortion. Even slavery protected the life of the enslaved.
In 1861 the South saw slavery as an institution that would last for generations. Kind of hard to promote reason and a voluntary decision to end slavery under those conditions.
On the contrary: Some down the line Conservatives like myself (I attended the first Tea Parties in NY) wave moved away from the Tea Party when it became infested with libertarians. I respect the utility of the Tea Party, but as libertarianism appeals most to those who are incapable of thinking things through, can't have anything to do with them. Parse the recent comments of intellectuals like Ann Ann Coulter or Mark Levin, and you'll see that they are doing them same. The Tea Part is useful for getting ideas out, but the last thing we need is a third party candidacy in 2012. BTW, FR is a Conservative not a Tea Part website.
You are aware that the movie "Gettysburg" was based on a novel, aren't you? And that conversation most likely didn't occur?
I agree a lot with this article.
First, I think yes, there were far more issues than slavery. One side has tried to make the war about nothing but slavery. However, the other side has tried to dismiss this reason completely. Anyone who has read the newspapers of the time or studied the Lincoln, Douglas debates knows that slavery was an overriding factor of the time and was one of the fuses that started the whole thing. It was also a foundational piece of the economics of the South and the reason why there were trade embargoes and tariffs.
Regarding slavery, I don't believe we could have or should have done what some Libertarian's suggest and just have ‘bought’ them. That continues to justify that they were property. An individual can't be bought or sold. An individual’s greatest right is self-ownership. The government buying everyone’s freedom would have sent a message that it considered humans nothing but chattel.
Regarding how we got into the war, I believe Lincoln didn't initially see this as a legal secession but an illegal insurrection. I believe he did find justification in Article 1, Section 10 of the Constitution: “No State shall enter into any Treaty, Alliance, or Confederation...” He may have even seen this not as an initial move by the States but by certain elements within the States.
Regarding the war, things snowballed, at first it was small rebellions that built and built.. it wasn't one day everybody was happy, the next day, it was all out war.
Regarding how the war progressed and suspension of Constitutional liberty. It is hard to live in a man's shoes, but there was Constitutional authority in for many of the amendments that allowed for variance in a time of war. For example, Amendment 3 includes: “in time of peace”, Amendment 5 includes: “except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger”...
Now, as to the other Libertarian philosophical arguments, and where my Objectivist leanings differ from Libertarian thought, is that Individual Rights always trump State's rights. At that, States do not have rights, only an Individual can have a right. A State has a role, just as the federal government does. The further away from the individual, the lesser the role should be. One of the arguments for succession was the continued right of the State to subvert individual rights- the right of self-determination (ownership). There is a proper role for the Federal Government to step in IF individual rights are being subverted. States Rights(sic) are not the be-all, end-all. Individual Rights are.
Was Lincoln a tyrant? IMHO, No. He was a man caught up in extraordinary circumstances trying to make the best of the situation he was in and preserve our country.
Could he have made different decisions that would have made the war unnecessary? Possibly, but none of us (nor did Lincoln) have a magic time machine where we can jump back and forth and test different solutions. All any of us have are the choices we make with the obstacle in front of us.
I bet I could grind the argument to a painful halt by citing the Lincoln-Douglas debates. However, I’m not that sadistic.
So instead, I’ll approach it from an objective point of view, and put the whole blame of the Civil War down to amazingly bad luck.
To start with, after the American Revolution, slavery was dying out, and pretty quickly, and was exclusively an upper class practice. Had things remained this way, slavery probably would have been outlawed around 1833, about the same time as the British outlawed it.
But Eli Whitney, and others, developed the cotton gin around 1800, which meant the previously tedious and expensive processing of cotton could be done by machine, instead of by hand. This made cotton production and wealth explode in the South, with cotton fields springing up all over the place. And it also meant that slavery became within reach of the middle classes.
So an event about 60 years before the Civil War was to a large part responsible. And ironically, 50 years after the Civil War hit, the boll weevil ended cotton production in the South, which would have also removed the reason for the war.
Okay, that was the first thing. Second, though there were some small fanatical groups, like that led by John Brown, who wanted to start a war, after the first real battle of the war, both sides retreated because they knew they needed to ramp up a lot to make a war happen.
This would have been a great time for diplomacy, or at least agreeing to try to hash out differences instead of wholesale bloodletting. But it was a missed opportunity.
And then, when Lincoln sent General McClellan to fight the Confederate forces, McClellan did everything but fight. He wanted to run against Lincoln for president, and conducting a bloody war was not a particularly good stepping stone for the office.
But again, this meant lots of time where there could have been a parlay, but again a missed opportunity.
So, in the final analysis, it takes two to tango, and if either side would have at least offered to settle things down, thing might have been different.
Yes, I am aware that I spelled Gettysburg wrong.
Remind me how wars start again? Who was it that fired the first shot?
It depends upon the conditions under which it was accepted.
I believe that you are mistaken on that.
Then so is Governor Perry (which wouldn't be a surprise). So I checked, and you are correct; Texas had reserved the right upon application but removed it from the final copy.
Perhaps the author didn't meniton it because it isn't true?
According to one author on the topic, Charles Adams, total Federal revenue during the 1830s and 40s was $105.7 million, of which $90 million came from the South. So I was wrong, it was over 85%.
Every State in the Union had surrendered its right to unilaterally secede.
State your sources. When and where did ANY state agree to create an "explicitely perpetual" union?
When and where has ANY state "surrendered its right to unilaterally secede?"
Your picture of General Sherman gets a slaveship for an answer, for this simple reason: We fought that war because your side didn't think that black people had any human rights.
A rhetorical question I am not going to dignify beyond this response.
Jefferson Davis was every bit as much a "tyrant" in the South as Lincoln was in the North (by the end of the war, some Confederate states were threatening secession), but he seems to have been forgiven by his "libertarian" fans in the name of sentimentalism. Furthermore, it was the Confederacy, not the Union, that experimented with state socialism towards the war's end.
Let's look at a few more heroes of these champions of liberty who so detest the "tyrant" Abraham Lincoln:
Antonio de Oliveira Salazar
Now please do not misunderstand me. I am not in any way saying these men were tyrants on the level of history's Communist dictators (they most assuredly were not) or that their regimes were "just as bad" as the Communists (they were not). What I am saying is that these men ran regimes that were highly centralized and that they curtailed civil liberties in order to fight Communism. Yet libertarians do not hold them to the same standard; to the contrary, they tend to glorify them.
Now if George Papadopoulos or Rafael Trujillo can be excused as acting in extraordinary times then how in the name of all that is reasonable can Abraham Lincoln not be given the same consideration? After all, all Lincoln's "tyrannical" actions occurred after the Confederacy had opened fire on a US military installation. Prior to that time he had done absolutely nothing, nor would he have done anything had the southern states not seceded. He most certainly would never have interfered with slavery in states where it already existed; the Republican party's position was nonextension, not abolition. And the South knew it!!! But based on nothing but this (and possibly an impending high tariff) seven states seceded from the Union before the man had even been inaugurated!
Now, why is it that Rafael Trujillo and George Papadopoulos and Chiang Kai-shek--or for that matter Confederate President Jefferson Davis--are not labeled as "tyrants" by these same "libertarian" hypocrites?
The answer is obvious.
Davis, Trujillo, Papadopoulos, and Stroessner were defending "white western European civilization." Lincoln was (supposedly) fighting for a corrupted and mongrelized Union and for the adulteration of European blood. That's it. Period. And in "palaeo" thought Communism isn't an evil ideology, but rather a defect of non-European blood. Thus the "tyrant" Lincoln was a Communist and the "tyrant" Davis was a shining knight fighting for freedom (even though he had to crush some liberties to do it).
Palaeoconservatives and "palaeolibertarians" do not recognize a single Objective Universal G-d over a unitary human race. They are multiculturalists who advocate a "planet of peoples," in which each of a plethora of unconnected peoples has its own "equally valid" worldview and "gxd." The idea of a single G-d and a single moral standard on the authority of that G-d is "race-mixing" and "one-worldism."
Civilizationism is racialism, and racialism is henotheism!!!
I'm pinging you, wideawake, in case some ignoramus accuses me of equating anti-Communist authoritarians with totalitarian Communist dictators (I explicitly rejected this equivalency but that won't stop them). I didn't even say slavery was wrong! All I am doing is pointing out hypocrisy!
Anyone who cheers Chiang Kai-shek or Francisco Franco for abolishing federalism and instituting highly centralized national governments has no business attacking Abraham Lincoln! (Though I suppose they'll say that centralization is valid for some peoples but not for others.)
I wouldn’t say that too loud in my neighborhood.
Another Palin threadjacking in progress ...
Sarah Palin, the next Abe Lincoln.
> The Tea Part is useful for getting ideas out, but the last thing we need is a third party candidacy in 2012. BTW, FR is a Conservative not a Tea Part website.
If you thought my comments were not proper for FR then you should report me. Don’t need that “BTW”, btw.
I’m stating what I think the intent of that particular writer was. If the Tea Party dominates the Republican party you wouldn’t be in favor of a Conservative Party? Like some others? Hannity...
Not perpetual, but the Articles of Confederation established a union that could only be broken by approval of Congress with ratification by all the state legislatures.
Although this is pre-Constitution, it does matter because Article 6 of the Constitution states: “All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.”
and I thought it was an Apple vs. Microsoft thread?
The Articles of Confederation established a union that could only be broken by approval of Congress with ratification by all the state legislatures.
: That's another well worn myth from the Lost Cause school.
Section 3 of the 14th amendment basically stripped Davis and all other confederate leaders who had once sworn an oath to the US constitution of their citizenship. It prevented them from voting or from ever holding public office again. It also prevented the president from issuing pardons for that offense.
To try Davis or any of the others in court on additional treason charges would have been a violation under the 5th amendment -- i.e. double jeopardy. They had already been punished under the terms of Section 3.
Many criticized congress for including that clause because they felt strongly that Davis and others should pay for what they did. Others saw Section 3 as a way to punish the confederate leadership in one stroke while avoiding endless trials and perhaps a renewal of conflict as a result of those trials. For most then, there was no strong desire for endless revenge. They wanted it all behind them.
Secession itself was found to be unconstitutional under other court decisions.
You mistake conciliation (”malice towards none”) for concession:
“On the occasion corresponding to this four years ago, all thoughts were anxiously directed to an impending civil war. All dreaded it—all sought to avert it. While the inaugeral [sic] address was being delivered from this place, devoted altogether to saving the Union without war, insurgent agents were in the city seeking to destroy it without war—seeking to dissole [sic] the Union, and divide effects, by negotiation. Both parties deprecated war; but one of them would make war rather than let the nation survive; and the other would accept war rather than let it perish. And the war came.
Fondly do we hope—fervently do we pray—that this mighty scourge of war may speedily pass away. Yet, if God wills that it continue, until all the wealth piled by the bond-man’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash, shall be paid by another drawn with the sword, as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said “the judgments of the Lord, are true and righteous altogether”
With malice toward none; with charity for all; with firmness in the right, as God gives us to see the right, let us strive on to finish the work we are in; to bind up the nation’s wounds; to care for him who shall have borne the battle, and for his widow, and his orphan—to do all which may achieve and cherish a just and lasting peace, among ourselves, and with all nations.”
- Abe Lincoln
Hmmm, it must be a War on Drugs thread.
You can tell those threads because they call Republicans tyrants ...
“Never post anything that lacks the potential for a 60-car pileup.”
lol. Nice way of putting it!
"Articles of Confederation and perpetual Union between the states...”
"Every State shall abide by the determination of the United States in Congress assembled, on all questions which by this confederation are submitted to them. And the Articles of this Confederation shall be inviolably observed by every State, and the Union shall be perpetual; nor shall any alteration at any time hereafter be made in any of them; unless such alteration be agreed to in a Congress of the United States, and be afterwards confirmed by the legislatures of every State.”
US flagged slave ships were registered to mostly Yankee concerns, and outlawed by 1807(could have the year wrong). Again, nothing to do with the subject.
If you keep comparing me and my ancestors to Japs and nazi's of the wwii era, we're gonna have a problem. A person implying that are the scum of the earth, anyone that does that deserves my utmost scorn and invective.
Although the Articles of Confederation were never formally dissolved, to argue that they are still in force is preposterous. To hold them as binding is equally so. There is no language in the admission of any State of which I am aware that holds it as such. They were only concluded among 13 States anyway.
See post %84.
“Lincoln: father of Big Federal Governmen”
Lunacy - for 50 years after Lincoln, the Federal Govt was about 3% of our GDP and had almost none of the powers in the Big Govt that was created by Democrats Wilson, FDR, and LBJ.
“the midwife for 100 years of segregation”
So the Klan, southern segregationists, and the racist powers in the old confederacy couldn’t bring about 100 years of segregation on their own? They needed help? Never mind that this was done 10-30 years after Lincoln died, and after reconstruction ended, BY the southerners.
Apparently Lincoln is the author of all bad things in the USA since 1865 because well ... he SAVED the union dammit and he’s to blame!
“It didnt take long for many of the freed slaves to realize that they were far from free and that this newfound freedom had signifiantly diminished their economic lot in life.”
Really. How many willingly went back to slavery? Would YOU sign up to be a slave.
” A freedom won through reason and the voluntary decision of the Southern populace would have given these poor folks a chance for real integration into society. “
Too bad the South chose war instead of that path then, isn’t it? Funny how those who oppress others don’t seem to notice or mind the oppression that much.
Correction, the Articles of Confederation did specifically state the term “perpetual union”.
See post %84.
See Post #86.
It depends on if you think the Constitution is still law. Article 6 of the Constitution states: All Debts contracted and Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be as valid against the United States under this Constitution, as under the Confederation.
The question then is, is the Constitution law or not?
None of the admissions of the States after the "Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution" apply.
It is until a state(s) legislature and duly elected governor say otherwise, and the people of that state(s) vote in the affirmation. Then it's AMF to FedGov.
It's very foggy out. I hear the crunch of metal now....92 and growing.
None of the admissions of the States after the "Engagements entered into, before the Adoption of this Constitution" apply to agreements concluded thereafter.
The South shot first.
Hmm, looks like I’m late to the party. We’ll see how this works out.
“Others saw Section 3 as a way to punish the confederate leadership in one stroke while avoiding endless trials and perhaps a renewal of conflict as a result of those trials. For most then, there was no strong desire for endless revenge. They wanted it all behind them.”
Yup. A million men lost their lives in the bloodiest conflict in American history. Don’t underestimate the strong desire to put something that traumatic behind you.
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