Posted on 02/16/2011 2:11:53 PM PST by RepublicnotaDemocracy
I have had no particular interest in “states” rights per se since I remember what that phrase meant while I was young. It was mainly a cover phrase used by Democrats in the South to fight extension or recognition of civil rights for all Americans.
The only “parroting” I see around here are misunderstandings of the constitution by self proclaimed experts using canned responses from ideological sites of little worth.
I’m sure anyone who doesn’t lower himself to your level of ignorance is considered a troll.
Pitiful cheering section.
I hope WI is next.
Yeah I know, the very THOUGHT of retained state powers haunts me to this very day also. I can barely get to sleep some nights, what with the tossing and turning and all. Don't take this the wrong way but, I'm guessing you never got past the "young" stage in your life. You know, where you actually begin to think on your own. It's all part of growing up and can be a bit scary but you should really try it some time.
Excellent piece that perfectly defines the issue under discussion. Thanks.
I agree that it was a big mistake. I also believe that there is more to it than what the naked eye can detect. It is a "conditioning effect" if you will. Kinda like flash cards, they slowly convince the mass that tyranny is good. Then before you know it, BOOM.. Obama.
Even the greatest advocates of Enumerated powers do not dispute that there are certain unenumerated powers associated with the sheer sovereignty of the nation. Hamilton’s magnificent Essay on the Constitutionality of the National Bank most clearly expostulates this concept.
There were certainly several Senators recalled by their State over the "National Bank". I do not share Mr. Hamilton's view on our system of Government. If I had to classify myself, it would be Jeffersonian in nature.
The federal constitution is the creature of the People not the states. It was deliberately set up to be voted on by the People in convention in the states rather than state legislatures exactly so that it could not be truthfully claimed to be the “creature of the states”. If a state legislature were allowed to ratify then it could at a later date vote to de-ratify.
Your comment above is where you and I completely differ. The Federal Constitution was created by the States, for their benefit, to be mutually beneficial to all States and the people thereof. That is why we have a Federal Government, not a National Government. I understand terminologies change over time, but historical fact is just that. As Madison said," the undisputed fact is, that the Constitution was made by the people, but as embodied into the several States, who were parties to it; and therefore made by the States in their highest authoritative capacity."
It is also a historical fact that Madison said a great many things. Please continue reading..
Back when Madison was more Hamiltonian than Hamilton he even proposed that the states be abolished and made into administrative units created by the general government. He also wrote to H during the NY ratification convention that once ratifying the states could not withdraw. Nor could they ratify “conditionally”.
If this above is true, they sure didn't make this aware to the State of New York. I also believe that New York ratified before that letter saw the light of day. Furthermore, they did ratify the Constitution “conditionally”.
Ratification of the Constitution by the State of New York; July 26, 1788.
WE the Delegates of the People of the State of New York, duly elected and Met in Convention, having maturely considered the Constitution for the United States of America, agreed to on the seventeenth day of September, in the year One thousand Seven hundred and Eighty seven, by the Convention then assembled at Philadelphia in the Common-wealth of Pennsylvania (a Copy whereof precedes these presents) and having also seriously and deliberately considered the present situation of the United States, Do declare and make known. ...
That the Powers of Government may be reassumed by the People, whensoever it shall become necessary to their Happiness; ...
In regards to Mr. Madison, here is what he said during Virginia's ratification:
That resolution declares that the powers granted by the proposed Constitution are the gift of the people, and may be resumed by them when perverted to their oppression, and every power not granted thereby remains with the people, and at their will. It adds, likewise, that no right, of any denomination, can be cancelled, abridged, restrained, or modified, by the general government, or any of its officers, except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for these purposes. There cannot be a more positive and unequivocal declaration of the principle of the adoption — that every thing not granted is reserved. This is obviously and self-evidently the case, without the declaration.
Here is that resolution:
We the Delegates of the people of Virginia . . . declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution, being derived from the people of the United States may be resumed by them whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression, and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will: that therefore no right of any denomination, can be cancelled, abridged, restrained or modified, by the Congress, by the Senate or House of Representatives acting in any capacity, by the President or any department or officer of the United States, except in those instances in which power is given by the Constitution for those purposes. . .
The citizens of each state were/are the ultimate sovereign in deciding whether or not their state would join, or remain with the Union. It is true about the letter you mentioned in regards to Madison and Hamilton. They I believe were willing to sell their own mother in trying to get the Constitution ratified. Here Madison in his letter to Nicholas P. Trist, dated February 15, 1830. In it he said something completely different than the letter you've mentioned:
Applying a like view of the subject to the case of the U. S. it results, that the compact being among individuals as embodied into States, no State can at pleasure release itself therefrom, and set up for itself. The compact can only be dissolved by the consent of the other parties, or by usurpations or abuses of power justly having that effect."
After all, it was Madison who said that the states had the right to decide when the federal government was abusing its powers. In such cases the states could interpose their authority in order to protect their citizens. During the same year as the Trist letter, Mr. Madison also wrote to Robert Hayne. In that letter he stated: "extreme cases of oppression" a state would be “absolved . . . from the Constitutional Compact to which it is a party"..
I'll wait your response
Well done my FRiend. You realize of course if arrogantdude is a committed statist as I believe he is, it will fall on deaf ears. Your efforts are more appreciated by those of us who are willing to look at all available options to rescue our republic. I’m sure it’s just me but I like to get some personal digs in a la Saul Alinsky. Ridicule and belittle your adversary when it appears the merits of your argument will absolutely be ignored and be met with arm waving, name calling and other histrionics. Take care arguing with a fool.
I hope this is just the first of many states to vote for nullification of the Health Care Bill.
Odd...it was quite the popular topic among all those same liberal legal experts when "Boosh" was in office. (I agreed with them then, disagree with them now.)
So what? It's federal courts that have failed to uphold those efforts. I don't know about you, but if I sue somebody, they don't get to be the judge or jury.
Live with it? Partially delivered babies punched in their skulls with scissors? As long as the states decide?
You disgust me, you heartless creature.
Right on!
Right on!
Right on!
You make a good point, let me rephrase.
We would take the fight to the states then. We would not abandon the fight against abortion.
1 No Senators were recalled over the National Bank. Senators cannot be recalled.
2 Jefferson tried to undermine the Constitution at every issue unless supporting it would directly benefit his political machine. He is the last place any constitutional scholar goes for an understanding of it. Hamilton is the FIRST place one should go having written 2/3s of the greatest political philosophy since Aristotle explaining it, The Federalist Papers.
3 Had the Constitution been created by the States it would been sufficient to have the State legislatures ratify it. This was EXPLICITLY prevented by having conventions elected by the People to do it. They merely GATHERED in states as ONE People, Americans, to establish this highest authority.
Once the Conventions were elected the States had NOTHING to do with the process.
A Constitution is a FUNDAMENTAL law incapable of change by a single state or any number outside that prescribes in the Constitution for amendment.
4 You confuse “Conditional” ratification with the ability of the People to recreate a government which is what is referred to within your quotes from NY and Va. States had no ability to retract a ratification they were out of the picture entirely. The People could at anytime demand their representatives call a Constitutional Convention or purpose amendments. And amendments were rapidly added after ratification.
5 Madison’s letter convinced Hamilton that he could not allow conditional ratification and came at a critical point when he was almost worn down from his Herculean effort at the convention. It led to his amazing victory in NY converting a two-thirds defeat to a win through sheer strength of will and overpowering intellectual ability. And conditional ratification was, in fact, EXPLICITLY rejected by the delegates.
6 We have never seen any “oppression” which would or should dissolve the Union. Disagreements have been eventually resolved within our constitution even though traitorous Democrats attacked it and the Union a few years back. This Quixotic and utterly boneheaded attempt by the Slave Power deserves nothing but contempt and was fortunately crushed by the power of the Union. Unfortunately, it inflicted ruin on the rest of the South along its clownish Ruling Class.
7 Madison said that the government was both federal and national. Congress was federal but the executive and judicial were national. The “highest authoritative capacity” of the states to which Madison referred is subordinate to that of the federal and the People.
8 Are you seriously claiming that in 1941 a state could have said “we nullify the Draft Act” and refuse to send men to fight the Japs and Nazis?
If you don’t have anything intelligent to offer you can keep your insipid insults.
If the shoe fits...
It fits your mouth.
Children!!!
Stop talking to yourself it is embarrassing.
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