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Worst system ever: No one buys firing by seniority
NY Post ^ | February 24, 2011 | MARCUS A. WINTERS

Posted on 02/25/2011 3:06:33 AM PST by Scanian

The United Federation of Teachers maintains that laying off teachers according to seniority is the only "fair" way to accommodate New York City budget cuts.

Fair for whom?

It's certainly not fair to students, who lose the opportunity to learn from great young teachers. And seniority-based layoffs are particularly detrimental in New York City, which has invested heavily in recent years in hiring a corps of highly able young teachers.

But the simple fact is that "Last in, first out" is just about the worst of all of the bad alternatives for reducing the teaching staff.

No one honestly believes that releasing the most junior teachers is equivalent to removing the least effective teachers -- not teachers, not union leaders. And certainly not the thinking man on the street: The new Quinnipiac Poll shows that New Yorkers favor ending the LIFO rule by 85 to 12 percent.

"Last in, first out" is just a bureaucratic rule imposed in the name of "fairness" -- meaning only that it avoids the use of discretion, which, of course, can be imperfectly administered.

Here's an idea for a fair layoff system: Put every city teacher's name in a hat, and blindly pick them out.

Sound crazy? From the perspective of student achievement, it would actually be preferable to seniority-based layoffs.

Research shows that the average teacher improves in each of the first three to five years in the classroom. Proponents of LIFO point to these findings as clear evidence that if we must remove teachers, the youngest ones should go. But this is sleight of hand.

(Excerpt) Read more at nypost.com ...


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Government; News/Current Events; Politics/Elections
KEYWORDS: lastinfirstout; performance; students; teachersunions

1 posted on 02/25/2011 3:06:38 AM PST by Scanian
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To: Scanian

How about keeping the best people and getting rid of the dead weight? Doesn’t fit a lib’s idea of ‘fairness’ but it sure does mine.


2 posted on 02/25/2011 3:36:13 AM PST by lmr (God punishes Conservatives by making them argue with fools.)
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To: Scanian

HMMMMMM. Makes you wonder if the Post would take this attitude if they were laying off Post employee’s.

Getting out the Senior people would certainly be the best for the city , since it could mean that someone just short of retirement could be laid off and cheated out of their pension.

Laying people off according to their ability would be great, but who gets to judge that ability.

Certainly the best way would be to judge the competence or incompetence of those being laid off, anyone want to take any bets on how that would work out?


3 posted on 02/25/2011 3:36:33 AM PST by Venturer
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To: Scanian
Actually there are so many positions that are complete wastes like coaches who dont even teach.

Start by cutting the sports budgets

4 posted on 02/25/2011 3:40:10 AM PST by DainBramage
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To: DainBramage
Start by cutting the sports budgets

In Europe, the schools don't typically have a sports budget. If you want to do sports you have to join a sports club in most places which is expensive from what I've heard. I think they have some government grants and such but it isn't as organized as our High School sports are here. I just thought I'd throw that in... If we did away with School Sports we would more resemble Europe and that's what the Dems want, right? ;-P
5 posted on 02/25/2011 3:47:18 AM PST by lmr (God punishes Conservatives by making them argue with fools.)
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To: lmr
At my wifes school there is an old coach making over 60,000 a year who only coaches golf and teaches one class...freshman science. He hands out the lesson then reads to them verbatim from the book, then surfs the net while they take a quiz.

He has a failure rate of 40%.

6 posted on 02/25/2011 3:58:46 AM PST by DainBramage
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To: Scanian
So if raising teacher quality across the system is the goal, then the practice of removing teachers based on seniority is a terrible way to go about it. Under "Last in, first out," just as many lousy teachers as great ones will be let go. From the perspective of student proficiency, this is no better than pulling names from a hat. But by going about it randomly, we'd lose fewer teachers for the number of dollars saved, since some whose names are pulled would have relatively high salaries due to their years of experience and advanced degrees.

On the whole, this is a rather confused commentary.

Teachers voluntarily leave at both ends of their careers. What is the average attrition rate among new teachers, both for those whose contracts are not renewed and for those who wish to voluntarily leave the field? How many teachers retire each year? Die or become incompacitated? Would choosing to not fill those positions with new hires close the budget shortfall? If not, how many positions would still need to be trimmed?

7 posted on 02/25/2011 4:06:36 AM PST by Racehorse (Always preach the Gospel . . . . Use words if necessary.)
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To: Venturer

Baltimore City’s Education Superintendent is offering buyouts to senior teachers as a way of avoiding laying off the fresh new ones. That makes the culling voluntary, and apparently reduces the total payroll significantly.


8 posted on 02/25/2011 4:26:15 AM PST by maica ( It is better to trust in the LORD Than to put confidence in man.)
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To: Racehorse
Government Unions emphasizes protection of the most incompetent of the incompetents.

Short of rape, (statutory or "rape, rape") how many teachers do you know who have been dismissed? Me neither. Have you ever wondered why a union member subjected to sexual harassment NEVER applies to the Union for protection from, and discipline of, the offending union member?

9 posted on 02/25/2011 4:32:55 AM PST by BilLies (no)
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To: maica

Yes that works well , and it is voluntary, but at some point, when it stops working there have to be hard decisions made.


10 posted on 02/25/2011 4:33:01 AM PST by Venturer
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To: Venturer
Getting out the Senior people would certainly be the best for the city , since it could mean that someone just short of retirement could be laid off and cheated out of their pension.

Federal law precludes this.

11 posted on 02/25/2011 4:33:26 AM PST by Roccus (Who knows?........Who cares?........Why bother?)
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To: Venturer
that someone just short of retirement could be laid off and cheated out of their pension.

Pensions are vested by law, (Not contract) I'm not sure of the period but believe it's after 7 years and cannot be "lost" by simple layoff. Bankruptcy would do the trick though.

12 posted on 02/25/2011 4:35:13 AM PST by Graybeard58 (Of course Obama loves his country. The thing is, Sarah loves mine.)
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To: Graybeard58
I'm not sure of the period but believe it's after 7 years

IIRC, when the law was passed vesting would occure after 5, 10 or 15 years dependent on some other criteria I just don't remember. At the time I worked for the Bell System and we already had 15 year vesting.

13 posted on 02/25/2011 4:41:43 AM PST by Roccus (Who knows?........Who cares?........Why bother?)
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To: Scanian

If any employee has a history of poor performance appraisals they should be at the front of the layoff line no matter the duration of employment.


14 posted on 02/25/2011 4:55:19 AM PST by subterfuge (BUILD MORE NUCLEAR POWER PLANTS NOW!!!)
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To: DainBramage
Actually there are so many positions that are complete wastes like coaches who dont even teach. Start by cutting the sports budgets

I agree. Sports should be an after school activity as it is in other countries....

15 posted on 02/25/2011 5:05:19 AM PST by eeriegeno (<p>)
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To: Scanian

No one ever mentions the real issue. The amount of total salary paid to non-teachers in most school districts far outstrips the teachers’ salaries total. The budget can easily be reduced without affecting one single teacher. Fire the parasites.


16 posted on 02/25/2011 5:57:53 AM PST by Seruzawa (What's Democrat's legacy? Almost 1/2 million dead US soldiers and collapsed cities.)
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To: DainBramage

I had teachers like that when I was growing up.


17 posted on 02/25/2011 1:32:22 PM PST by lmr (God punishes Conservatives by making them argue with fools.)
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To: Scanian

Here is a perfect argument about why we need to support the teacher’s unions... can’t argue with this logic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5kxc6kzH-uI


18 posted on 03/05/2011 11:49:36 PM PST by ljswisc
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