It seems more like I'm debating a bunch do-gooder college girls who just walked out of a "social justice" symposium, not conservatives who would be cognizant of the thousands of institutions that were destroyed when government money flowed into them.
How anyone can read story after story on FR, of government co-option, transformation, mission creep, and not see vouchers for the glaringly obvious Trojan Horse they are baffles me.
In an unlimited system all schools would get better...
An exclusive private school is not going to be bettered by the admittance of voucher students. That's absurd. They're getting the cream of the crop as it is now. With waiting lists in many cities.
... and children with discipline and educational problems would be funneled into specialty schools that can help them to achieve.
Oh, just public school special ed. Yeah, that works well.
YOU AND I BOTH DOUBLE PAY FOR OUR KIDS EDUCATION.
I pay taxes for a lot of things I don't or won't use. Short of anarchy, it's inevitable. I could use the bus I'm taxed for, but I prefer the exclusivity of my car.
We believe that ALL people can achieve and succeed regardless of where they start in life.
What? That's a talking point more suited for a political speech. It certainly isn't reality here on planet Earth where genetically inherited abilities are handed out in extreme disparity.
That's liberal, egalitarian nonsense. And hell lies on the path of those who would attempt to correct for that disparity with government program after government program as the left has attempted for a century now.
People already pay for it in their taxes.
Less than 50% of Americans are net taxpayers, and the numbers shrink more and more each day.
You tell me how you're going to hand out 5,6 or 7 thousand dollar vouchers per child and not increase that? That's welfare plain and simple. Why do you want to see more handouts for those aren't net taxpayers?
You have an elitist attitude.
Well, on other threads I'm often called a know-nothing populist. So I must be toeing the Good Line pretty good to have such varying opinions on my beliefs.
You believe that YOU and YOU alone should have access to the best simply because you have the money, I do as well.
Yeah, I unashamedly claim, without remorse, that people should be able to purchase higher quality if they can afford it.
I guess shame on me for not being a leveling Bolshevik.
It is equally unfair that the poor are excluded from future success by being excluded from higher quality education simply because their parents can not afford to double pay.
If they're poor it's extremely doubtful they're double paying. They are much more likely than not already a net recipient of tax money and you want to funnel them even more.
Education is and will be the civil rights struggle in this century.
Is Al Sharpton hacking accounts here at Free Republic today or something?
1) Government money: It is not government money it is a voucher that is controlled by the parent. It is money already slated for SCHOOLING. It is simply applied by the parent instead of the government.
The money would follow the student regardless of which school they attended. The only restriction should be that it is an accredited school. The school could be either a charter school , religious or strictly private school.It , now this might shock you, could be a public school in another district. (Kinda ruins the idea of white flight doesn't it)
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"An exclusive private school is not going to be bettered by the admittance of voucher students. That's absurd. They're getting the cream of the crop as it is now. With waiting lists in many cities."
Of course they would get better. Their would be more than just the white shoe crowd knocking on their door. Remember top prep school are limited to only those that can afford them, regardless of waiting lists, lots of limited Ted Kennedy's in the ranks as apposed to a significantly more intelligent and worthy poor kid, And their are many smart poor kids that are brushed by the system long before they have the opportunity.
Also, as much as I downplay diversity,their is something to be said for knowing an array of different people from different backgrounds. It would do a World of good for some of the elitist snobs, like yourself, to be exposed to some other socioeconomic levels.
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“You tell me how you're going to hand out 5,6 or 7 thousand dollar vouchers per child and not increase that? That's welfare plain and simple. Why do you want to see more handouts for those aren't net taxpayers?”
NO. I would hand out a voucher that equaled the average cost of the education that the local public school would receive to educate them. IE: In the City of Cleveland that would be around $13,000. . With increased competition,we may actually find that some schools would actually be less expensive or offer alternative activities that would draw more children, and hence more money,to them. . As far as it being Welfare, how exactly is it Welfare. It is money that would be spent for that child at the public school. If a voucher is Welfare, a free public school education is Welfare. As much as one may believe it is welfare it is not. If you think it is Welfare, you better start rewriting allot of State Constitutions. M<most have some sort of GUARANTEED childhood education in the constitution.
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“Oh, just public school special ed. Yeah, that works well.”
Dedicated stand alone Special Education works quite well. It is the attempted mainstreaming of children with disciplinary, psychological, and mental and developmental disabilities that often have a negative effect on both the child with the problem as well as the other members of the class.
Besides, why wouldn't enterprising educators set up specialty schools that would cater to special needs children? Of course they would $13K a pop is allot of cash and a specialty school with 400 kids would gross $5million a year. More than enough to attract high end educators and administrators. You could eve weight extra dollars to those children with Developmental and social problems. This would create even more of an incentive to educators.
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I pay taxes for a lot of things I don't or won't use. Short of anarchy, it's inevitable. I could use the bus I'm taxed for, but I prefer the exclusivity of my car.
Irrelevant argument. People still pay if they use the bus. It is subsidized, not free.
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“What? That's a talking point more suited for a political speech. It certainly isn't reality here on planet Earth where genetically inherited abilities are handed out in extreme disparity.
That's liberal, egalitarian nonsense. And hell lies on the path of those who would attempt to correct for that disparity with government program after government program as the left has attempted for a century now”
This may possibly be the most prejudiced and despicable statement I have ever read on FR. . Just because people are different, geneticaly or otherwise, doesn't mean they have less of a right to the chance to advance in life. Just because a child is born to poor parents doesn't make them genetically inferior to anybody. Those that are truly genetically inferior require MORE assistance than others. This is part of what the government does. . We have hopefully long passed the age of the poor house and the work house for the indigent an feeble minded. Even the staunches Conservative believes that those incapable of caring for themselves must be taken care of for not only their own good, but for the good of all society. . What kind of a warped attitude makes you believe that a child born in poverty is deserving of that poverty because of a genetic component? Just because a parent is poor, doesn't make them less of a parent or person. Many of the most successful in history where born poor. . Lincoln was dirt poor, Reagan's father was a straight up drunkard that had difficulty keeping a job. Edison had nothing at birth. Orphans raised without parents become titans of industry, IE Dave Thomas of Wendy's Inc. Truman was a failed haberdasher. Justice Thomas was the son of a share cropper. They didn't even have indoor plumbing, yet he is now on the Supreme Court. . In your view of America, the wealthy would never change, yet in the REAL America, the wealthy change all the time. sixty years ago, no one ever heard of Buffet, Gates, Spielberg, or Lerner. In your America the real movers and shakers are still the Carnegie's, Mellons, Vanderbilt's, & Rockefeller's. . After All: "Families are always rising or falling in America" 'House of the Seven Gables' by Nathaniel Hawthorne. . A voucher is not a government program, It is the elimination of a government MONOPOLY. A monopoly system that rewards mediocrity and failure with six figure salaries, gold plated benefits, and retirements. A Voucher System would increase competition. regardless of whether it improves the private schools it will damn sure improve the public schools.
Look to cities that have a vibrant charter school programs. These school have been booming. Not all are good, but the good ones, and exceptional ones have waiting lists. They also have many children in them from other districts, paying tuition to go to those schools. WHY , because they are a better alternative to even some public schools in the suburbs. The poor Charter Schools go out of business quickly, because they do not serve the interest of the parents and work quickly spreads.
Why do you think the teachers unions and the Democrat Party fight so hard against vouchers and charter schools? Do you think it is ‘for the children’?
************************************************************ 'If they're poor it's extremely doubtful they're double paying. They are much more likely than not already a net recipient of tax money and you want to funnel them even more.' . Totally off-base thinking. Poor people pay taxes as well. They pay taxes on payroll if they work, they pay sales taxes, and they also pay taxes trough property taxes either directly, or through their rent payments. . What about working class and lower middle class people. They certainly pay taxes, besides, how are we giving "THEM" whomever 'THEM" may be, more? It is the same amount paid on their behalf to the local public school. It is simply offered to the parent to make the decision as to where the money is actually spent. The parent receives no net boost in income or benefit. Their child receives the boost in educational opportunity. ************************************************************ “Is Al Sharpton hacking accounts here at Free Republic today or something?”
NO, Al Sharpton agrees with you, He doesn't like vouchers either. He wants all the money to be monopolized by his friends in the teachers unions. They pay him. ************************************************************ "I'm flabbergasted at the level of naivety I'm encountering on a Conservative forum." . Let me tell you straight up, YOU ARE A BIGOT! Plain and simple. You do not want those less fortunate than yourself the opportunity to advance. Call it what you will, but it is straight up prejudice. Search your soul. It is may be a little tarnished and need of some attention.
Perhaps you have mistaken a Conservative forum for the KKK Forum. You may be more comfortable on that sight. I hear you get a nice white bed sheet and pointy hood to go along with the bigoted attitude. . To think that Conservatives are not interested in Civil Rights, We are the guarantors of true Civil Rights. We believe in a true color blind society, one that rewards people based on their efforts and their merit, not where they come from or how wealthy or poor their parents are. . My God, your attitude is stunning and off putting.