Posted on 04/02/2011 7:59:07 AM PDT by kindred
renald showers
sorry for the typo, NOT showpers
SHOWERS
“even the early Church was awaiting the return of Christ and NOT judgement”
Of course they were not awaiting judgment, but the tribulation preceeds the judgment, it is not the same thing.
Interesting read.
I’ve always been a “pre-tribber”, but always wondered about this passage:
1 Corinthians 15:52
In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
At the last trump: does this mean the so-called rapture will not occur until the the 7th trumpet of judgment is blown? Or is this another “trumpet” this passage is referring to?
“Im just going to shoot myself before the last mile. Not interested in seeing what horrors come next and I dont expect to make it into heaven anyway.”
Oh, please don’t do this! You still won’t escape judgment if you’re not covered by the blood of Jesus.
Umm, the tribulation IS judgement, or did you never read that?
If Paul wanted to train up the Church to live through the tribulation, why didn’t he tell them to MOVE to safer locations?
Horde food?
Buy weapons?
All that makes sense IF YOU ARE STAYING BEHIND, but NOT if you are going up! :)
However, I genuinely believe we are going to have a major war/judgement against the US before the rapture, maybe a world wide war of sorts, most likely a combination of the Islamic wars now and some catastrophe like Japan happening here
So, I am hording food... :)
“Umm, the tribulation IS judgement, or did you never read that?”
Huh? Where do you get that from?
Acts 14:22 - “Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.”
Romans 5:3 - “And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;”
Romans 12:12 - “Rejoicing in hope; patient in tribulation; continuing instant in prayer;”
Revelation 7:14 - “And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”
The word “tribulation” in all of these verses (and more) is Strong’s 2347, meaning:
“1) a pressing, pressing together, pressure
2) metaph. oppression, affliction, tribulation, distress, straits”
It is translated the following ways in the KJV New Testament:
“tribulation 21, affliction 17, trouble 3, anguish 1, persecution 1, burdened 1, to be afflicted + 1519 1”
In the Old Testament, the synonyms would be Strong’s 6862:
“1) narrow, tight
2) straits, distress
3) adversary, foe, enemy, oppressor
4) hard pebble, flint”
And Strong’s 6869:
“1) straits, distress, trouble
2) vexer, rival wife”
So, let me ask you, where exactly can I read in the Bible that tribulation is judgement?
“If Paul wanted to train up the Church to live through the tribulation, why didnt he tell them to MOVE to safer locations?”
Maybe because we are told to endure our trials and not run from them? If God wanted to spare us from hardship, He could just strike us dead as soon as we accepted Christ. Instead, He has appointed us to perform His work in this world, until He returns. So, if we were to flee from the tribulations of the world, who would we witness to? The other believers who are hiding with us in our bunkers?
“At the last trump: does this mean the so-called rapture will not occur until the the 7th trumpet of judgment is blown? Or is this another trumpet this passage is referring to?”
There is only one “last trump”, the 7th trumpet. You can assure yourself of this, by observing that the Second Coming always accompanies the “rapture”, the ressurection of the righteous, and this trumpet (which is also sometimes referred to as the sounding of the Seventh Angel).
All those unscriptural Tim LaHaye books have perverted sound Bible doctrine.
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory." (Matthew 24:29,30)
The tribulation happens BEFORE the day of the Lord, when he comes in power to gather his elect (those who believe on him) and judge the earth. As unpalatable as it may seem believers will experience tribulation. We already experience tribulation, but it will increase prior to the day of the Lord. After the believers are taken up, the Lord will JUDGE the earth. The bible does NOT call that period of judgement tribulation.
No response :(
OK...so you think the rapture and the second coming happen in conjunction with each other? In other words, the rapture only occurs during the tribulation period—and at that, when the 7th trumpet is blown.
1 Corinthians 15:52WKUH>At the last trump: does this mean the so-called rapture will not occur until the the 7th trumpet of judgment is blown? Or is this another trumpet this passage is referring to?In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump:
for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible,
and we shall be changed.
There is only one "last trump", the 7th trumpet. You can assure yourself of this, by observing that the Second Coming always accompanies the rapture, the resurrection of the righteous, and this trumpet (which is also sometimes referred to as the sounding of the Seventh Angel).
YHvH's Feast of Trumpets, known to some as Rosh Hashanah, For a month (the month of Elul just before the month of Tishri) On the Feast of Trumpets (the first day of the month of Tishri) In addition Yah'shua re-celebrated each of YHvH's Feast days in sequence. The "last supper" was a Passover dinner. The following day is Hag Matzoh when all leaven is removed; Yah'shua rose from the dead on the Feast of Yom ha-Bikkurim, Fifty days after Yah'shua rose from the dead is YHvH's Feast The next of YHvH's Feasts is the Feast of Trumpets.That is one interpretation. Another is that "trump"
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
refers the to the blowing of a Shofar.
is when the Last Trump is blown.
each day the Shofar is blown.
a series of blasts of the Shofar occur until the Last Trump is blown.
Each was celebrated within the metaphor of the Feast.
Leaven is a metaphor for sin as it puffs one up.
the day when the finest of the barley harvest is offered to YHvH.
of Shavuot which in the Greek is known as Pentecost.
The first Pentecost is when the Law was given at Sinai.
This Feast is know as the Feast that the Day nor Hour is known.
Thanks very interesting...I’ve read good discussions supporting pre, mid and post trib raptures. Never thought of the “trump” related to 1 Corinthians referred to as a shofar.
I would encourage all to repent and put their trust and faith in Christ—as these are very “interesting” times we’re are living.
I know some of these “pre, mid and post” tribulation discussions turn out to be raging arguments at time. So I even hesitate to ask questions—but we all should remember that whatever we believe about the “rapture” is not a condition of salvation—(not that anyone is going off the deep end on this)—only by the Grace of God are we saved.
That’s all well and good, but that doesn’t refute the clear statements of Scripture that the living won’t preceed the dead in Christ. All this occurs at the Second coming, after the 7 year tribulation, and there are multiple times in Scripture that confirm the sequence.
“No response :(”
Be patient... God doesn’t always work like Instant Messenger :)
“OK...so you think the rapture and the second coming happen in conjunction with each other? In other words, the rapture only occurs during the tribulation periodand at that, when the 7th trumpet is blown.”
According to my study, the sequence is this:
The 7 year period draws to an end, the Lord reappears, concurrent with the sounding of the 7th trumpet, which is concurrent with the first resurrection, and immediately followed by the rapture of the living believers.
Now, the wedding feast of the Lamb occurs around this time, but I’m still not certain as to the exact timing there. I believe, though, it happens after this rapture, but before the Lord descends to the Mount of Olives, with his army, to destroy the gathered armies at Armageddon. However, since the feast occurs in Heaven, time may well be meaningless in that regard, and so there may be no interruption apparent to those on Earth, between Christ’s reappearance in the heavens, and his descent to Earth.
Thanks for your work and response. Very interesting!
Guys,
We will defiantly be gone, that is for sure before the Day of the Lord (seven year trib) (2 Thess 2:7-8, Rev 3:10).
(For what it is worth) I personally believe that The Rapture will take place and then America will be judged. In light of our godly founding etc I am not saying that we as believers will not have some persecution etc.. from the American Left.. But we (the church) will not go through the seven year trib.
Check out this chart
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_40SH0mEU7H0/St5Jmljr4aI/AAAAAAAAAAk/_ZU5ZF_YjaE/s1600-h/scandam2_jpg_w560h771.jpg
Also Be careful with all of this spirit of Islam that is infiltrating the evangelical churches. That the Anti Christ is Islamic etc.. by the end of the first half of the trib Islam will be judged and wiped out (Ezek 38-39, Rev 17:16-17) Satan is preparing them (Islam) to counter act the two witnesses and the coming Messiah with the Twelfth Imam etc.. (Matt. 24: Rev. 11: 3-16) when the church is gone (Ezek 38-39, 2 Thess. 2:7-8, Rev. 3:10).
For it is at this time shall the Gospel shine forth into the entire world from ground zero in the Muslim world, Jerusalem!. We as believer think to much with a Western bias when it come to the Gospel out reach etc.. The Gospel during this time will go out smack dab in the heart of Islam! And millions of Muslims will come to Christ and in Christs kingdom be loved and part of Almighty Gods great Kingdom age plan (Rev. 7:13-14, Isa. 19:21-25).
http://www.theignorantfishermen.com/2008/07/sets-in-west-and-rises-in-east.html
The Lord has used the West to be a spring board for gospel evangelical out reach for nearly 400 years but we are now an apostate country an our light is almost gone save but a remnant through out America (Isa. 1:9 our countries parallel condition). Israels remnant under the Two Witnesses will change the dispensation and be a brilliant light burning unto the world at that time preaching repentance, salvation of the Jewish Messiah, and to pick up the Lords prior message that in seven years, the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand and will be established!!
Glory be!1 Even so Come Lord Jesus!
I.F.
The time of Jacob’s trouble is NOT judgement?
Rev 6:17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Thanks for your work, Boogieman.
I once believed in the pre-trib rapture because that’s what I grew up with as an evangelical. It didn’t take many years of study before I came to the same conclusions you have. Not only is your position based on sound study of the Bible, but it is also based in logic.
Being a Christian in America is not like being a Christian in China or Iran, where openly professing your faith opens up you and your family to torture, imprisonment, or a terrible death. Why would God spare us those fates during the tribulation when so many suffer the same now and have through persecutions over the last 2,000 years?
I’ve also learned to study prophecy and, indeed, the whole Bible in the light of a Jerusalem-centric viewpoint. Everything falls into place so easily when we don’t force a modern Western viewpoint on God’s word.
I have no quarrel with those who are pre- trib or mid-trib — it’s not a necessary article of faith. I could also be wrong. But I believe that most Christians, including myself, will adjust their eschatology accordingly when the antichrist makes his appearance. Things that may not be clear now will become clear as the end draws near.
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