Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

Hyperinflation Nonsense
Townhall.com ^ | May 26, 2011 | Mike Shedlock

Posted on 05/26/2011 6:12:01 AM PDT by Kaslin

Every time the US dollar ticks lower, commodity prices tick higher, or the CPI rises two tenths of a percent, hyperinflationists come out of the woodwork with nonsensical predictions and silly comparisons to Zimbabwe or Weimar Germany.

Given that the US dollar recently fell to the lower end of its trading range, hyperinflationists once again came forth with their message of impending doom.

Silly Comparisons to Weimar Germany

Please consider The Time to Prepare for Hyper-Inflation is BEFORE It EXPLODES
by Graham Summers.

The similarities between the US today and Weimar pre-hyperinflation are striking. As in Weimar, US fiscal authorities are not taking any steps to rein in their loose money policies. Similarly, the US Fed, like Germany’s financial elites believes that currency depreciation is a good thing.

Thus we have a rather frightening set-up for hyperinflation in the US: the largest emerging market players are moving away from using the US Dollar at the same time that US monetary authorities are engaging in disastrous policies similar to those employed by the men who brought hyperinflation to Weimar Germany.

I firmly believe the US will see serious (‘70s style inflation) if not hyperinflation within the next 2-3 years. It could come sooner depending on how the Fed’s policies play out.
Similarities? What Similarities


What part of that remotely resembles anything that is happening in the US today?

Reserve Currency and Trade Nonsense

The rest of Summers' post focuses on global trade and a move by some countries to replace the US dollar as the world's reserve currency.
Indeed, it was just revealed that ASEAN+3 countries (Brunei, Cambodia, Indonesia, Laos, Malaysia, Myanmar, the Philippines, Singapore, Thailand, Vietnam, China, Japan, and South Korea) are researching the prospect of a “common currency” similar to the Euro.

The significance of this development cannot be overstated.
The article to which Summers' refers is ASEAN+3 RESEARCH GROUP

Significance of Asean Currency Proposal Wildly Overstated

Summers says the significance of the development cannot be overstated. Of course it can and Summers proves it.

Just because someone writes a paper does not make it credible.

The ASEAN currency proposal was written by three professors in Malaysia. Their proposal is not under serious discussion by any country that matters, if indeed by any country at all.

Given the enormous problems with the Euro related to currency unions without fiscal unions, why would any country in their right mind barge into such an arrangement now pr any time soon?

Even if a few minor countries would agree to do such a thing, it is preposterous to believe Japan and China would agree to a common currency.

Every now and again an Asian currency union of some sort surfaces. Every time they are trumped up as if it is going to happen soon. They won't because the proposals are nothing but silly hype and wet dreams.

By the way, there might very well be a currency trading index of Asian currencies similar to the US dollar index, but that will have no effect on anything, just as the US dollar index does not cause anything to happen.

Real but Meaningless

Summers notes that China, Russia, Brazil, India, and now South Africa are moving to trade more in their own currencies (not the US Dollar), saying "All of these items are real and documented."

Yes they are real. They are also essentially meaningless. It makes perfect sense for countries that trade with each other to do so in their respective currencies. Even though oil is priced in dollars, oil trades in Euros right now. Oil trades in Yen now. Currencies are fungible. So if a few minor countries want to trade in Yuan now, it will not matter one iota in the grand scheme of things.

Meaningless facts, academic papers by Malaysian professors, and silly comparisons to Weimar Germany do not constitute a rational thesis for hyperinflation.

Confident Predictions

In Signs Hyperinflation Is Arriving Gonzalo Lira foresees an "imminent currency collapse" and "confidently predicts"



CPI Check

Inquiring minds are looking at the May 13, CPI Release from the BLS.

The Consumer Price Index for All Urban Consumers (CPI-U) increased 0.4 percent in April on a seasonally adjusted basis, the U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics reported today. Over the last 12 months, the all items index increased 3.2 percent before seasonal adjustment.

By October of 2011 we will all be able to look at that set of predictions and have a good laugh.

A Good Laugh Now

I you want a good laugh now, Lira writes ....

2012 will be the bad year: I predict that hyperinflation’s tipping point will be no later than the first quarter of 2012. From there, it will accelerate. By the end of 2012, I would not be surprised if the CPI for the year averaged 30%.

By that point, the rest of the economy—unemployment, GDP, all the rest of it—will be in the toilet. By that point, the rest of the economy will no longer matter: The collapsing dollar will make 2012 the really really bad year of our Global Depression—which is actually kind of funny.

It’s funny because, as you know, I am a conservative Catholic: I of course put absolutely no stock in the ridiculous notion that “The Mayans predicted our civilization’s collapse in 2012!”—that’s all rubbish, as far as I’m concerned.

It’s just one of those cosmic jokes that 2012 will turn out to be the year the dollar collapses, and the larger world economies go down the tubes.

As cosmic jokes go, all I’ve got to say is this:

Good one, God.
That's supposed to be credible hyperinflation analysis?

John Williams on the Weak Dollar

Please consider The Energy Report interview John Williams: Weak Dollar Behind Inflationary Oil Prices. Here are a few select quotes from Williams (JW), the Energy Report (TER), and my responses to them.

JW: Let's say the U.S. wants to sell debt to Japan, but Japan doesn't like the way the U.S. is running fiscal operations. It can say, "We don't trust the U.S. dollar. We'll lend you money, but we'll lend it in yen." Then, the U.S. has a real problem because it no longer has the ability to print the currency needed to pay off the debt. And if you're looking at U.S. debt denominated in yen, most likely you would have a very different and much lower rating.

Mish Response: Williams makes a fundamental mistake regarding trade. Several of them in fact. The US does not go about wanting to sell debt to Japan or China. Rather Japan and China buy US debt as a mathematical consequence of trade imbalances.

Moreover, Japan and China are more dependent on the US for their export model than the other way around. The odds China or Japan would not take US dollars is virtually zero. Both economies would crash without exports to the US. China's unemployment would soar and so would political unrest.

I keep stating, and it keeps falling on deaf ears, that as long as the US runs a trade deficit, it is a mathematical certainty that some country is accumulating US dollars or US dollar denominated assets.

Rather than repeat myself again I will simply point to several article regarding trade.


JW: It is possible lenders would not buy the Treasuries unless denominated in a strong and stable currency. As the USD loses its value and becomes less attractive, people will increasingly dump dollar-denominated assets and move into currencies they consider safer. And you'll see other things; OPEC might decide it no longer wants to have oil denominated in U.S. dollars. There's been some talk about moving it to some kind of basket of currencies—something other than the U.S. dollar, possibly including gold. This would be devastating to the U.S. consumer. You'd get a double whammy from an inflation standpoint on oil prices in the U.S. because the dollar would be shrinking in value against that basket of currencies.

Mish Response: Once again we see the silly statements regarding the pricing of oil in Euros or some other currency from someone who does not understand that currencies are fungible.

It does not matter one iota what oil is priced in unless one tried to do it in Yap Island stones or some other highly illiquid currency. Oil already trades in Euros and Yen just as gold does. One does not need dollars to buy oil any more than one needs dollars to buy gold. Currencies are fungible. I remain amazed at the number of people who trip over this simple construct.

JW: If, hypothetically, you're pricing oil in yen, there's no reason for anybody to hold the USD. The dollar would sell off more rapidly against the yen and oil inflation would be even higher in a dollar-denominated environment.

Mish Response: As stated above pricing currency is irrelevant. Moreover, whether or not there is a "need" to hold dollars is irrelevant. Countries will accumulate US dollars and US dollar assets as a mathematical function of trade.

That said, there is a need to hold dollar, real and perceived. China needs to hold a certain amount of dollars to prepare for repatriation of hot money inflows speculating on a rise in the Renminbi. Moreover, neither Japan nor China wants their currency to rise out of fear it would hurt exports and lower employment. China is particularly worried about a slowing economy and is overheating now as a consequence.

TER: You've mentioned that hyperinflation will happen as soon as 2014. If that is true, wouldn't OPEC want to shift off dollar pricing as quickly as possible?

JW: From a purely financial standpoint, that would make sense. Other factors are at play, though, including political, military and unstable times in both North Africa and the Middle East. Those who are able to get out of dollars, I think, will do so rapidly and as smoothly as possible.

They will sell their dollar-denominated assets. They will convert dollars to other currencies. They will buy gold. Generally, they will dump whatever they hold in dollars and sell the dollar-denominated assets they don't want. There's a market for them; it's just a matter of pricing. As the pressure mounts to get out of the USD, the pricing of dollar-denominated assets will fall, which in turn would intensify that selling. The dollar selling will intensify domestic U.S. inflation, which is one factor that picks up and feeds off itself and will help to trigger the hyperinflation.

Mish Response: The setup is ridiculous given that oil pricing unit is irrelevant. The series of answers by Williams shows how one very poor idea involving oil priced in something other than US dollars cascades step-by-step into a preposterous overall thesis.

Moreover Williams' responses also depict the typical one-sided US dollar centric focus of most hyperinflationists.

Predictions

  1. Lira sees hyperinflation starting now, and it will be in full swing in 2012 with the CPI up at least 15% and as much as 30% or more.
  2. Williams says "hyperinflation will happen as soon as 2014"
  3. Summers sees "serious (‘70s style inflation) if not hyperinflation within the next 2-3 years."

Myopia

Hyperinflationists have myopia. They only see (or only focus on) problems in the US. They ignore overheating in China, enormous problems in the UK, and huge structural issues in the EU.

The US may have more problems than elsewhere (or not), but that does not imply the dollar might collapse to zero against the currencies of other countries.

Intermediate-term, I actually expect the dollar to rise, but should it sink, it will not be a sign of impending hyperinflation.

Massive Inflation in China

Those looking for a huge inflation problem can find it in China. Credit growth in China is rampant. Please consider Ponzi Financing Involving Copper Trade Gone Wild In China

China is building cities no one lives in, malls that are vacant, trains and airports no one uses yet Williams thinks the Yuan is better than the dollar. Why? For that matter why is the Euro or the British Pound?

The entire global banking system is insolvent.

US Total Credit Market Debt Owed



US M1 Money Supply



For all the massive amount of printing the Fed has done, note that total credit market is roughly 27 times the size of M1 and roughly 6 times the size of M2 (not shown).

Can that credit be paid back? The answer is no and it will act as an economic drag for a long time.

So another trillion in printing is going to cause hyperinflation? When the total credit market is $50 trillion? Please be serious.

Total Consumer Credit



Total Loans and Leases of Commercial Banks



Bernanke is trying like mad to get banks to lend and consumers to borrow. Instead consumers continue to pay down or default on debt.

Hyperinflation is a Political Event

Let's go back to the beginning, with a definition of the word: Hyperinflation is a complete loss of faith in currency. Typically a political event, not a monetary event is the cause.

Jeff Harding at the Daily Capitalist asks Why Does Hyperinflation Occur?

In every modern case of hyperinflation the decision to inflate was a political one, not an economic one. In almost every case hyperinflation followed a war or a coup or some massive political change such as the end of the Soviet empire or the rise of a dictator or a populist-socialist takeover, and other political unrest.

In the 20th Century there were quite a number of hyperinflationary events. I used the Wikipedia list of modern hyperinflations (Since WWI) and researched the political circumstances of each country. The circumstances can be put into three rough categories: post-war disruption, post-Soviet collapse, and socialist-populist regimes.



For example we all know what happened in Germany during after WWI when politicians, mostly socialists, blamed all their problems on reparations and continued to print so much money that it resulted in the famous cash-in-a-wheelbarrow photos. They literally had no clue what they were doing.

The post-Soviet empire collapse is easier to understand as former communist/socialist regimes fought for power and struggled with economic policy. Many of these countries have reformed or were forced to reform their monetary and fiscal policies.

Many of the socialist-Marxist regimes were Latin American populist governments who employed “revolutionary” anti-capitalist nostrums for economic policy. Chile (Allende) and Argentina are good examples. Argentina has had years of high inflation to hyperinflation since 1980. In Africa most countries were a mixture of strongmen with socialist-Marxist policies. I am not suggesting that these were pure socialist governments, but rather the typical situation where the government seizes or controls large parts of industry and issues regulations controlling much economic activity.

These hyperinflations all had one common denominator: during a period of instability, spending was used as a political tool and it got out of hand. I understand that the circumstances of each country were different and that it is perhaps unfair to say, lump Israel in with Argentina. But each country faced political factors that created instability or a national crisis; the government spent heavily to gain popular support, and resorted to the printing presses to pay for their spending.
Zimbabwe vs. Weimar

In Zimbabwe, the Mugabe government initiated a "land reform" program intended to correct the inequitable land distribution created by colonial rule. Ultimately, Mugabe's attempt to to bail out the poor at the expense of the wealthy is what triggered capital flight and loss of faith of the currency.

His reforms not only caused a flight of capital and human capital (the wealthy), they also led to sanctions by the US and Europe. In response, Mugabe turned on the printing presses but the loss of faith in the currency had already occurred.

In Weimar Germany, printing for war reparations kicked off hyperinflation. Wikipedia provides a good accounting in Inflation in the Weimar Republic.

It is certainly not impossible for there to be a complete loss of faith in the US dollar, however there odds are extremely remote.

Can The Fed Cause Hyperinflation?

I do not think the Fed itself can cause hyperinflation and more importantly I am sure they would not if they could. The reason is "Hyperinflation Would End The Game"


To understand how powerless the Fed is, one needs to understand the difference between credit and money, how much the former dwarfs the latter, and what the Fed's role is in getting banks to lend. I discussed those ideas above and in far more depth in Fiat World Mathematical Model.

Note that the Fed has no power to give money away. Nor would they do so if they could.

Unlike the Fed, Congress could give money away.

I do not know if giving everyone in the US $60,000 would do it or not, but giving everyone $60,000 a month indefinitely would sure do it.

How likely is that?

The answer is 0%.

Hyperinflation? No Way

Please consider Hyperinflation? No Way by Mike Whitney.

The Federal Reserve is not going to push the economy into Zimbabwean hyperinflation. That's pure bunkum. The Fed's plan is to weaken the dollar to boost exports and to force China to let its currency appreciate to its fair-market value. By purchasing $600 billion in US Treasuries (QE2), the Fed effectively reduces the supply of risk-free assets, which sends investors into riskier assets like stocks and commodities. Is there an element of class warfare in the policy?

You bet there is. It's a direct subsidy to the investment class while workers are left to face higher prices on everything from gasoline to corn flakes. It's a royal screw job. But while Ben Bernanke may be a prevaricating class warrior and a charlatan, he's not insane. He's not going to shower the nation with increasingly-worthless greenbacks like they were confetti.

It's ridiculous to wail about "money supply" when velocity is zilch. It's pointless to crybaby over "bank reserves" when people are broke. It's crazy to yelp about "printing presses" when lending is down, credit is contracting and the economy is mired in the most vicious slump in 80 years.

The hullabaloo about inflation is vastly overdone. China's not going to dump its $3 trillion stockpile of mainly USD and US Treasuries. Who started that cockamamie story? China's doing everything it can just to keep its currency cheap just so to keep its people working. Are they suddenly going to do an about-face and commit economic harikari just to strike a blow against Uncle Sam? No way.
Gold

The US has the largest gold reserves of any country.

It is pretty silly to think the dollar will go to zero when all it would take to stop hyperinflation would be convertibility at some high rate.

Charles Hugh Smith vs. FOFOA

I have made the point numerous times that the Fed will not cause its own destruction, nor will Congress.

Charles Hugh Smith states the thesis eloquently in The Mechanics of Hyperinflation: Bankers vs. Politicos
If we take it as axiomatic that hyper-inflation is a political process, then we have to conclude that hyper-inflation serves some powerful interests who would support the policies that would bring it to fruition.

My problem with the "hyper-inflation is inevitable" school of thought is that I cannot identify what powerful interests would gain from the destruction of the currency and all financial wealth. A hyper-inflationary wipeout certainly wouldn't benefit the Financial Power Elites who hold the vast majority of the financial wealth. Yet it is this very Elite which wields the preponderance of political power.

Thus you end up with this untenable conclusion: the politically powerful Financial Elite will consciously choose to self-destruct. I don't buy that as a likely scenario. If inflation started destroying their wealth, then they would instantly influence political policy to reverse course to preserve their wealth.
In an incredibly long-winded rant FOFOA counters Smith in Deflation or Hyperinflation?

How will "the Elite" profit from hyperinflation? By being the first to spend the bills with new zeros added and thereby outrunning the rest of us in the race to spend and winning the competition to retain standard of living. Hyperinflation is the end result of the dollar-debt timeline, there is no other way it can end. Only the severity is a variable to be considered.
Ackerman Convinced by Nonsense

Amazingly, that assertion by FOFOA was enough to convince Rick Ackerman, a hard core deflationist to change his mind and go straight from the deflation camp to the hyperinflation camp.

This prompted Gary North (an inflationist) to blast Ackerman in Rick Ackerman Defects to the Hyperinflationist Camp After 30 Years 

Gary North writes ...
Incredible! Three decades of bad assumptions, yet all that it took to persuade his self-defining outlook him was an article on anonymous blog. All of a sudden, hyperinflation is "entirely consistent with human nature."

Out of the deep freeze and into the fire.

But what of non-hyperinflationary Charles Hugh Smith, who three weeks earlier had been a model for him? Gone!
Yes, Gary it is incredible because FOFOA's theory is not born out in practice.

Did the elite benefit in Weimar? Zimbabwe? Argentina? Anywhere?

If the elite benefited from purposeful hyperinflation we would have some history suggesting just that. So where is it?

Supposedly the Fed is going to cause this event, to (in FOFOA's words) "outrun the rest of us in the race to spend, winning the competition to retain standard of living".

Excuse me for asking but what lifestyle is Bernanke in a race to maintain? Janet Yellen? Anyone on the Fed?

In that respect, FOFOA's explanation is downright humorous.

Stack of Things Missed by Hyperinflationists 

  1. Trade math
  2. Reserve currency math
  3. Credit dwarfs currency and changes in credit and the value of credit are far more important than the changes we have seen in money supply.
  4. Failure to understand pricing currency of oil is meaningless
  5. Misconceptions about excess reserves (Please see Fictional Reserve Lending for a discussion).
  6. Not understanding limits and restrictions on the Fed
  7. Not understanding limits and restrictions on Congress

  8. Failure to understand peak oil will not cause hyperinflation. Heck, peak oil will not even cause inflation.
  9. Inflation in China, does not constitute inflation in the US.
  10. Unfunded liabilities do not constitute debt
  11. Myopia - The US is not the only country with massive structural problems. Let's stop pretending otherwise
  12. Failure to understand the Fed will not destroy itself and the banks by allowing hyperinflation

Not every hyperinflationist goes wrong on every point above. However, they all go wrong on point 12.

Point 12 alone is sufficient to debunk hyperinflation arguments.

In regards to point 8, it is important to understand inflation is a monetary phenomenon. Any rise in the price of oil will be offset by a drop in prices elsewhere, if money supply is constant. Right now, money supply is not constant, but it is rising far more rapidly in China than in the US.

In regards to point number 10, many hyperinflationists, Williams included makes the mistake of treating unfunded liability projections as debt. Social Security can be fixed for a decade or more simply by hiking the retirement age. Medicare is far more problematic, but Paul Ryan and others in Congress have solutions that can easily stave off a major catastrophe for a long time.

Unfunded liabilities are a huge problem, but let's not jump the gun with preposterous conclusions they will cause hyperinflation any time soon.

Theory vs. Practice

Please note that banks do not want hyperinflation or even massive inflation. The reason is simple: Banks will not want to be paid back with cheaper dollars, especially worthless dollars, and Congress is beholden to itself and the banks.

Hyperinflation could theoretically come from massive sustained political will to bail out the little guy at the expense of the banks, the wealthy, and the political class. However, unlike Mugabe and Zimbabwe, neither the banks nor the Fed nor the political class wants to bail out the poor at the expense of the wealthy.

Indeed, Bernanke's, Paulson's, and Geithner's actions to date have done the exact opposite!

We have bailed out the banks at the expense of the ordinary taxpayer (keeping the little guy in debt).

This is what it comes down to: In theory, Congress can easily cause hyperinflation. In practice, they won't, and neither will the Fed. As Yogi Berra once quipped "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice, there is."

Deflationists Won the Bet 

I bet a "crying towel" with a person commenting under the name "Heli-Ben" as to whether deflation or hyperinflation would occur first.

The bet is over and I demand my towel. Deflation happened.

My definition of deflation is a decrease in money supply and credit with credit marked-to-market. That clearly happened. So did a decrease in credit straight up. In fact, consumer credit is still declining as shown in the charts above.

The Case-Shiller housing adjusted CPI (my preferred measure of the CPI) went brutally negative at one point. Even the standard CPI went negative for a while as shown in the following chart.



Prices did not stay negative long, but there is an unmistakable dip, the first dip since the Great Depression.

Whether the measure is credit, credit marked-to-market, or prices we had deflation.

More tellingly, we had deflation based on numerous conditions that one would expect to see in deflation: falling asset prices, falling treasury yields, rising junk bond yields, a rising US dollar, falling commodity prices, reduced speculation, etc.

The question now is whether or not we will see deflation again, and if so how quickly.

Inflation vs. Deflation

The Us is certainly in a period of inflation now by my model. Home prices are making new lows and credit is in a funk, but most conditions appear inflationary at the moment.

Indeed if you believe the US will be in periods of inflation more often that deflation you may very well be correct, especially if your measure is the CPI. However, credit is a better measure than prices.

Consumer prices in Japan barely fell over the course of a 25 year period. Yet is is silly to argue that Japan never went in deflation. The conditions associated with deflation were frequent and persistent: falling consumer demand, the wiping out of excess leverage, a rising saving rate, and falling asset prices plagued Japan for decades.

My thesis has been the US would slip in and out of deflation for a number of years, just as Japan did.

I see no good reason to change that call. I expect another plunge in credit marked-to-market and another plunge in commodities. I expect another surge higher in the US dollar.

Yet, I have no faith in the grand super-cycle deflation theory where literally everything crashes.
I see no reason to predict the S&P 500 will drop to 200, or gold to $250.

Japan did not collapse yet, but it could. Moreover, Japan's debt at 200% of GDP shows just how out of hand things might get before the market imposes its will. Japan is a far better candidate for massive inflation than the US at the moment.

All it would take to sink Japan is a collapse in exports and a rise in interest rates to 3%. At 3% or so, interest on the national debt would consume 100% of Japan's revenue.

With that backdrop, the myopic focus on the US seems silly.

Unlike super-deflationist Robert Prechter, I expect gold to hold its value over the mid-term (another swoon is always possible) as the Fed fights massive deflationary forces of excess leverage, excess debt, boomer demographics, global wage arbitrage, cutbacks in state and local governments, and most importantly - consumer attitudes towards debt.

In the final analysis, it's all about attitudes. The Fed cannot force consumers or businesses to borrow or banks to lend (and it wouldn't for reasons stated, even if it could). In a fiat credit-based system, that is what matters.


TOPICS: Business/Economy; Culture/Society; Editorial
KEYWORDS:

1 posted on 05/26/2011 6:12:02 AM PDT by Kaslin
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

Interesting read.


2 posted on 05/26/2011 6:19:20 AM PDT by Huck (The Antifederalists were right.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin
When you give fiat money away to the slugs of society the value of the fiat currency deceases. That is fact.

Give a child an allowance for doing no work and see what happens....

3 posted on 05/26/2011 6:23:04 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

There are a few items that the author does not delve into. The US has a staggering deficit of $14T. If every taxpayer were taxed at 100%, that would not even make a dent in reducing the deficit. GDP growth now comes from consuming, not manufacturing. One of the main reasons that the north won the civil war was because they had manufacturing on their side. We would not have succeeded in WWII without our manufacturing efforts.

Compound that with our parasitic dependence on foreign oil controlled by OPEC, a nuclear Iran, 47% of Americans not paying any federal income tax, a hostile business environment burdended by taxes, unfair subsidies, and over-regulation, and, yes, hyperinflation is a possible reality.


4 posted on 05/26/2011 6:27:13 AM PDT by NoKoolAidforMe (Show me the body!!!)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

So, hyperinflation is caused by (1) civil war, (2) a socialist regime, or (3) the Post Soviet Collapse. We have the beginnings of (2), which may precipitate (1). Yeah, no chance of hyperinflation here.

5 posted on 05/26/2011 6:29:56 AM PDT by kosciusko51
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51

The author is a hyperinflation “denier”.

(See, I can play the left’s game, too)


6 posted on 05/26/2011 6:31:26 AM PDT by MrB (The difference between a Humanist and a Satanist - the latter knows whom he's working for)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

MARKER


7 posted on 05/26/2011 6:35:02 AM PDT by JDoutrider
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51

What we have now is a new frontier not covered by that chart - a mass of entitlement obligations coming due and no way to pay for them other than monetizing debt. And we’re not the only ones with that problem.


8 posted on 05/26/2011 6:44:41 AM PDT by dirtboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 5 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin
Unfunded liabilities (Social Security, Medicare, pay and pensions for Government workers) are not debt: they are worse.

Debt can be restructured, conceivably even defaulted on.

Unfunded liabilities cannot be restructured, and defaulting on them is generally held to be political suicide.

This is why the Fed will indeed happily print ever larger denominations of Ben Bernanke ClownBucks to meet liabilities. They will do anything to avoid the pain of amputation.

What the writer misses is that Hyperinflation is the easy way out. That's why it happens.

Appendix: I mentioned 'pay and pensions for Government workers' at the top because it was the Weimar Government's inability to cut away these liabilities that led to their disastrous money printing. For them, destroying the whole country was easier than a default on Government liabilities, and so that is what happened.

9 posted on 05/26/2011 6:48:50 AM PDT by agere_contra ("Debt is the foundation of destruction" : Sarah Palin.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: dirtboy
What we have now is a new frontier not covered by that chart - a mass of entitlement obligations coming due and no way to pay for them other than monetizing debt

Not to pick nits, but I believe that this is covered by socialism.

"The problem with socialism is that eventually you run out of other people's money." - attributed to Margaret Thatcher.

10 posted on 05/26/2011 6:51:45 AM PDT by kosciusko51
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 8 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin
I do not think the Fed itself can cause hyperinflation and more importantly I am sure they would not if they could. The reason is "Hyperinflation Would End The Game"

•Hyperinflation by definition would destroy the currency and thus the banks
•Hyperinflation would destroy the wealthy and all their corporate bond holding
•Hyperinflation would destroy the Fed
•Hyperinflation would destroy the wealthy political class


What the author apparently fails to realize is that Obama, Soros and the like want the game ended so they can start a new one. I'll take the items one at a time. Destroying the banks isn't a problem for socialists. Banks represent an independent power block not controlled by the government. Destroying them is a necessary step in establishing Soro's new world order. Hyperinflation is a very effective tool for doing that. In addition Soros is moving out of dollar denominated bonds so the crash of the bond market won't hurt him. As for destroying the Fed, Soros wants to destroy the entire United States, destroying the FED is just the first step. Finally there is the line that hyperinflation would destroy the wealthy political class. Apparently the author doesn't understand that for a socialist destroying the wealthy political class is their entire reason for existence.

Obama/Soros and their crew want hyperinflation because it destroys their enemies, concentrates power in the hands of the guy with the most thugs, and makes the vast majority of people completely dependent on handouts.
11 posted on 05/26/2011 6:51:57 AM PDT by GonzoGOP (There are millions of paranoid people in the world and they are all out to get me.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

Besides the fact that it’s just plain fun to wallow in doom-and-gloom rhetoric...

See http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Total US debt (national, state, personal, etc.): $55T
Total US debt per family: $675,476
Total savings per family: $6,564
Total assets per family: $963,567
Total legal obligations per family: $3,885,965

Ya see a problem there?

There was an excellent book written just before WWII called “You Can’t Do Business With Hitler” by an American businessman working in Germany. His observations included how the government there was in debt/obligations beyond sane resolutions. The only way out was (1) print money, (2) confiscate wealth of neighbors, and (3) kill creditors. Hence WWII and hyperinflation.

The Soviet Union collapsed in the end because they couldn’t pay employees. No money = no work.

The thing about bickering about whether we’re going to enter hyperinflation is that it’s like bickering over whether we’re going to fall off a cliff if we keep walking in a certain direction: if it’s going to happen, and you don’t prevent it, once it happens there is no turning back. Looking at the guy next to you saying “oh, you’re right, we DID fall off a cliff” is a bit late.


12 posted on 05/26/2011 6:53:41 AM PDT by ctdonath2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: kosciusko51

This is an aspect of socialism we have not seen yet. So it a way, it is a new manifestation many have been warning about for years - and now it is here.


13 posted on 05/26/2011 6:56:39 AM PDT by dirtboy
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 10 | View Replies]

To: agere_contra

I agree with your assessment.


14 posted on 05/26/2011 7:05:45 AM PDT by bkopto (Obama is merely a symptom of a more profound, systemic disease in American body politic.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin
What part of [pre-WWII Germany] remotely resembles anything that is happening in the US today?

Obligation to pay up more than is feasible. Same situation, albeit different cause.

Half of government spending operates by borrowing money. If would-be creditors do not believe the money will be paid back, they won't lend the money. When the money can't be borrowed, the money is printed. This is beginning, hence QEn. If other nations begin to collapse outright (see Greece), creditors will clam up - but the entitlement hordes will still demand their payouts, and bureaucrats will still expect paychecks, and both will threaten riots if not paid, so the money will flow from the printing presses.

There is a huge difference between "it's available, albeit expensive" vs. "it's not available". We can argue all we want about whether hyperinflation will happen, but so long as money can be borrowed it won't happen. The moment there's a bond sale and nobody buys, the presses fire up and the value of the dollar plummets.

15 posted on 05/26/2011 7:13:33 AM PDT by ctdonath2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

Oh, BTW: keep in mind we live in a very sophisticated computerized age.
It won’t be “hyperinflation” per se.
It will be much more complicated than that, with lots of misdirection, smoke, and mirrors.

One thing those in power have learned is how to achieve a goal without doing it the canonical way. Think “no, we’ll never ban guns ... but we’ll make commerce in them so complicated that nobody will want to sell you one.” You’re right, there won’t be hyperinflation per se ... they’ll just conjure up something else which won’t be in name, but will be in effect.


16 posted on 05/26/2011 7:19:19 AM PDT by ctdonath2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ctdonath2
The moment there's a bond sale and nobody buys, the presses fire up and the value of the dollar plummets.

Bears repeating. That day will come.....likely soon.

17 posted on 05/26/2011 7:21:42 AM PDT by OB1kNOb (Paradox: To dumb down the citizenry so they won't think for themselves, the government educates them)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 15 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

The flip side to the inflation coin is that it also deceases the value of productivity/hard work. Nobody EVER talks about that.


18 posted on 05/26/2011 7:24:02 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: central_va

It reduces the middle class to subsistence levels. They work enough to eat and not much more because there is nothing more to gain.


19 posted on 05/26/2011 7:31:27 AM PDT by arthurus (Read Hazlitt's "Economics In One Lesson.")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 18 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin
Hyperinflation has nothing to with inflation.

Inflation is the devaluation of the currency. This can vary from none to a lot. 30% inflation is not Hyperinflation.

Hyperinflation is when holders of that currency have lost faith in that particular fiat. Thus when the world admits to itself we are not going to pay them back (QE3, forced renewals of maturing bonds, Forced public purchase of government debt, etc), everyone holding that fiat will head for the door trying to get into anything of value.

The author seems to ignore the fact that the federal reserve has been buying 50 to 75 percent of every debt auction for the last couple of years. This is a major sign we could be heading toward hyperinflation. It appears either no one wants our debt or there simply isn't enough available investment capital to finance the debtors anymore.

As to inflation, anyone buying the items that are necessary to live knows the current rate is around 10%. Yes the government lies. The author has to know the numbers from BLS are pure fiction put out for political reasons.

Yes, you can have deflation and inflation at the same time. When times are good and housing and stocks are going up while gas and food are going down no one seems to notice this fact.

So the question is:

Is the author ignorant or a liar?

20 posted on 05/26/2011 7:48:38 AM PDT by Snuph ("give me Liberty...")
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: OB1kNOb

Will take me a bit to kick around the numbers properly (not my field), but here’s a small & startling start:

There’s about $1500B in cash floating around. When economic times get dire, people want cash - not loans, not promissory notes of deposit, they want cash. That’s about $5000/person - not a lot, really. Let’s overlook the fact that a huge fraction of that cash is in overseas vaults (China comes to mind).

The federal government alone is running a $1800B annual deficit. If those bond sales fall flat and stay flat, QEn starts and we print as much cash as is needed - at the rate of $5B/day. The longer those presses run, either the longer bonds don’t get bought because the value of the dollar isn’t worth it, or interest rates rise fast to attract interest in a plummeting dollar. Remember, bureaucrats and entitlees demand payment or the whole political system crumbles; pols WILL keep those presses running.

That means in one year we will DOUBLE the cash supply. Total value hasn’t changed, so the value per dollar drops 50% - and that’s without the impact of everyone dumping their imploding dollars ASAP.

Ok, it’s not quite that simplistic in reality - but that’s the framework. It all depends on whether we can sell $5B in bonds every day indefinitely ... and that’s coming into doubt; cross the tipping point, and show me how we _can’t_ have hyperinflation.


21 posted on 05/26/2011 7:51:01 AM PDT by ctdonath2
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 17 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

People use the word “hyperinflation” in lieu of simple “inflation” for the same reason that police officers refer to a common thug as a “gentleman.” It has more syllables, and thus sounds more impressive.


22 posted on 05/26/2011 7:53:34 AM PDT by Mr Ramsbotham (Laws against sodomy are honored in the breech.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: Mr Ramsbotham
People use the word “hyperinflation” in lieu of simple “inflation” for the same reason that police officers refer to a common thug as a “gentleman.” It has more syllables, and thus sounds more impressive. Uh, nope.
23 posted on 05/26/2011 7:54:43 AM PDT by SeeSac
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 22 | View Replies]

To: NoKoolAidforMe

The US has, by far, the largest manufacturing output in the world. We’ll likely lose that to China at some point, but that will take time.


24 posted on 05/26/2011 8:43:03 AM PDT by green iguana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 4 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

Thanks for posting that.


25 posted on 05/26/2011 9:46:24 AM PDT by DannyTN
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: ctdonath2
.....cross the tipping point, and show me how we _can’t_ have hyperinflation....

I think that tipping point is a lot closer than most people think.

26 posted on 05/26/2011 10:02:36 AM PDT by OB1kNOb (Paradox: To dumb down the citizenry so they won't think for themselves, the government educates them)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 21 | View Replies]

To: green iguana
Our steel output is pathetic. I consider the ability to make steel a critical factor in national security. We are at third world levels in steel production.

If you don't think our heavy manufacturing base and our ability to produce critical war materials has been seriously degraded by Free Trade™ than you are just plain stupid.

27 posted on 05/26/2011 10:17:05 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 24 | View Replies]

To: central_va

+1


28 posted on 05/26/2011 10:24:17 AM PDT by TexasRepublic (Socialism is the gospel of envy and the religion of thieves)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: agere_contra

The writer is an idiot.

Of course unfunded liabilities are the problem.

And of course inflation (maybe not hyper, but definitely inflation) is the PLANNED SOLUTION.

What other way is there?

(Excluding free market solutions, which virtually no one in government is interested it. Just a few of the more “radical” “Republicans”.)


29 posted on 05/26/2011 10:37:54 AM PDT by samtheman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 9 | View Replies]

To: GonzoGOP
Obama/Soros and their crew want hyperinflation because it destroys their enemies, concentrates power in the hands of the guy with the most thugs, and makes the vast majority of people completely dependent on handouts.
Maybe one of the most important sentences ever posted on the internet.
30 posted on 05/26/2011 10:41:02 AM PDT by samtheman
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 11 | View Replies]

To: central_va
It's "then you are just plain stupid", not than.
31 posted on 05/26/2011 10:44:34 AM PDT by green iguana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: Kaslin

Bump for later


32 posted on 05/26/2011 11:11:54 AM PDT by hattend (Obama is better than OJ... He found a killer while on the golf course.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 1 | View Replies]

To: green iguana
It's "then you are just plain stupid", not than.

Instead of worrying about my diction why don't you TRY to address the point I was making. The reason is you can't. I am right.

33 posted on 05/26/2011 11:29:19 AM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 31 | View Replies]

To: central_va

Steel production in this country was wiped out by three things, endless environmental laws increasing costs, high energy costs which is a major part of the cost of steel production and unions.


34 posted on 05/26/2011 12:13:28 PM PDT by DB
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 27 | View Replies]

To: DB

All I know is the nation is at risk due to offshoring and Free Trade™ in order to save a few pennies on the dollar. Our grandfathers are spinning in their graves....


35 posted on 05/26/2011 1:12:02 PM PDT by central_va ( I won't be reconstructed and I do not give a damn.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 34 | View Replies]

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
News/Activism
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson