[Jim Noble]

Would that we had a Lincoln

You mean, someone willing to kill 600 000 Americans and destroy 1/3 of the country to impose his will?

Unfortunately, the one who comes closest to the part played by Abraham Lincoln in our looming tragedy is Obama himself.

Perhaps FReepers living in Europe don't see debt-based money used to fuel ever-more-powerful socialism as akin to negro slavery, but it is every bit as divisive and has every bit as much potential for violence. Obama, the socialist, sees clearly that the 50 states cannot exist much longer half-slave (NY,DC,NJ,IL,MA,CA,MD) and half-free.

To quote the Lincoln you long for, "In my opinion, it will not cease, until a crisis shall have been reached, and passed. 'A house divided against itself cannot stand.' I believe this government cannot endure, permanently half [socialist] and half free. I do not expect the Union to be dissolved -- I do not expect the house to fall -- but I do expect it will cease to be divided. It will become all one thing or all the other."

I do believe that Obama and the forces behind him are quite prepared to use force to re-unify the nation on the core issue of the right of the government at Washington to dictate what may be done with your property, up to and including confiscation by either regulation or fiat.

So in that sense, the looming crisis of an election that the people are not ready for (not ready to choose, I mean) IS quite similar to 1860.

[nathanbedford]

Jim: I am quite willing to join with you in criticizing Lincoln's methods in waging the war as unconstitutional. But I do not accept (nor do I suggest that you assert) that it was his desire that such a war be fought or that merely by his election he is somehow guilty of precipitating a war. It is my judgment that his conduct as Commander-in-Chief was not so unreasonable given the political pressures on him and the very grave threat to his vision of the Union which vision, after all, has come to be accepted throughout the land as it was decided of the field of strife.

I also believe that his postwar administration would have been far more benign and more constitutional than reconstruction proved to be. I do accept that his lifting of habeas corpus, his arresting newspaperman and Congressman was illegal. His wartime measures overall were in many respects unconstitutional. The Emancipation Proclamation was a taking of property without just compensation and therefore unconstitutional. But one would have to search deep in the cupboards of history to find a more justifiable (or perhaps better put, a less unjustifiable) illegal action by Commander-in-Chief than the freeing of slaves.

In sum, I think that Lincoln was drawn into the vortex just as everyone else was and his extra-constitutional measures, done more in desperation than in malice, can be pardoned if one accepts the primacy of maintaining the integrity of the Union. If not, then the opposite conclusion is virtually automatic. I agree with you entirely in denying any good motives to Barack Obama and I do join with you in your assessment that he would go to strong arm lengths to transform America according to his vision.

[luvbach1]

I don’t think killing 600,000 Americans were in Lincoln’s plan. Unfortunately it, and its attendant destruction, turned out to be the cost of preserving the union. I know we have a lot of confederates on FR but I grieve for both sides.

[Nowhere Man]

About a modern day Lincoln, it sounds something like out of John Titor's description of the Civil War but his dates are a bit off but the story sounds similar. I'm dubious on the time traveller part, at least until I see proof (IMHO, I'm sure it can be done scientifically) but it is an interesting story and until I get proof, I think it could be a story put out by a conservative/religious/libertarian person or group to show us a warning of what could happen.

http://www.johntitor.com/Pages/CivilWar.html

[fortheDeclaration]

You mean, someone willing to kill 600 000 Americans and destroy 1/3 of the country to impose his will?

No, it was the Southern leadership clinging to their slaves, who were responsible for that.

Lincoln upheld the rule of law.