Belfast violence flares again as police attacked.

BBC ^ | 6/21/11 | Mark Simpson

[Grammy]

Violence has flared for a second night at a sectarian interface near a Catholic enclave in east Belfast.

Petrol bombs, missiles and fireworks have been thrown at police lines in the lower Newtownards Road-Short Strand area of east Belfast on Tuesday.

Two water canon vehicles have been brought to the area but have not been used yet.

The trouble has been reported as the most serious in the area for a decade.

[Grammy]

I got a text from people who are right in the middle of this. They report families are being evacuated as the rioting is very bad. People are hijacking and smashing cars, petrol and pipe bombs are being thrown, and a photographer was shot.

Water canons are being used on the crowd now.

I won't repeat more as it could reveal who they are. They have asked for prayers.

[cherry]

keep us posted...

[OldNewYork]

I pray for peace in Belfast and in both communities.

[Grammy]

"keep us posted...."

I will if I hear further. The texts were several hours ago.... I waited until I could find a confirming news article to post.

[Grammy]

Thank you.

[PAR35]

That’s what happens when ethnic cleansing isn’t used. All the Catholics should have been sent south, and protestants north when the island was split.

[OldNewYork]

What are you talking about? You’re treading close to offending a good number of people on this site.

Partition was a stop-gap measure by the British to avoid the entire island being Irish-ruled, in hopes the British could either reclaim the entire island at some time, and/or have all Ireland in the same status as Canada or elsewhere in its then-empire. The ethnic cleansing you’re apparently recommending was tried with Cromwell and wasn’t about to be repeated in the 1920’s. Even so, what became the Republic of Ireland was something like 97% Catholic at partition, but what Britain held didn’t have the same kind of ratio in reverse, nor could it have. The rioting now is related to the view you seem to be expressing here.

[ButThreeLeftsDo]

I’m flying there next week.

Swell.

I just sent off an e-mail to a couple of friends there to get the latest...

[driftless2]

At the start of the establishment of N. Ireland and for many decades after there was about a 2-1 ratio of Protestants to Catholics in N. Ireland. But with the subsequent higher Catholic birth rate, the ratio is now approaching fifty-fifty.

[OldNewYork]

True, but even those numbers (if any numbers even could) don’t support the ethnic cleansing recommended above, or any other ignorant comments about Irish natives. Only two of the traditional Irish counties there, Antrim and Down, actually have a Protestant majority. And without Belfast and its suburbs, likely wouldn’t even have that. Ethnic cleansing, as recommended above, thus would result in the Protestants being sent to the Lowlands of Scotland and to England and the Irish having the entirety of the island of Ireland. And that’s not fair to the Protestants, having been so long settled in Ireland.

Pray for peace there, in both communities. It took so long to get where they have, and it’s more or less lasted for thirteen years or so. Hopefully peace can be returned to after this.

[PAR35]

Where ethnic cleansing is carried out, and borders established, there is a solid chance for peace. Where some misguided notion of multiculturalism exists, strife is inevitable.

Sure, there is short term pain for the first generation, but in 60 years, all that is left is nostalgia.

[OldNewYork]

There was never the situation you’re referring to, even if you’re plainly right about the mono-ethnic stability (that part’s undeniable). At the formation of the British administrative entity of Northern Ireland, as someone pointed out above, there were already about one third Catholic Irish. There are only two counties that have a Protestant majority: Antrim and Down, and not even that without the city of Belfast and its suburbs. The kind of ethnic cleansing you’re recommending would mean an entirely Catholic island of Ireland, with the minority Protestants removed to Scotland and England.

[driftless2]

I certainly support a peaceful resolution to the problem. But I’m simply pointing out that demographics might make dissolution inevitable. I have ancestors who came from N. Ireland, and I definitely don’t want to see more violence or anyone forced to leave because of religious differences.

[OldNewYork]

I do as well. What do you mean by an inevitable dissolution? Attitudes had been changing somewhat, on both sides of the divide. Before this, things had been looking hopeful for a while.

[driftless2]

I don’t mean it’s inevitable. I just mean if the population of N. Ireland reaches a 2-1 ratio of Catholics to Protestants, there will most likely be a movement to dissolve the union and merge with the Republic of Ireland. After talking to Irish citizens, visiting Ireland, and reading articles I have the feeling most Catholics would like a united Ireland. As long as the process doesn’t include violence. I might be wrong, but that’s the sentiment I get.

[OldNewYork]

I think that’s right about those in the Republic, that they’d like a united Ireland in the main, done peacefully. Even with the violence there was in the north, I think that’s also the case among the nationalist community, the Catholics.

What you’re saying is possible. Changes in Britain itself, or the European Union, would affect this, but as the demographics change and Catholics come close to being half the population, Protestants have to decide whether to stay or go, and what staying means, if they do. Of those with Lowland Scottish origins though, it’s helpful to remember they’ve generally been there as long as Europeans have been settled in America. And some of those with English origins have been in Ireland longer.