Posted on 07/07/2011 12:42:35 PM PDT by jessduntno
I COMPLETELY agree on that point! Any fair tax supporter who has in any manner supported Dick Armey's FreedomWorks has done himself a HUGE disservice!
The current income tax system allows government social engineering on a GRAND scale! The sales tax would not!
I rest my case!
In other words, you hate America and are eagerly advocating the quickest way to guarantee that all the wealth and investment capital leaves immediately and permanently.
If I knew that the government would rely on its multi-trillion dollar budget purely from fees and sales taxes, I would pull all of my money out of this country in a heart beat and spend it as I please in any other country that wouldn't tack on an extra 20-30% penalty for buying within its jurisdiction.
What you advocate is a wealth tax - stealing all that a person has built up over their lifetime. A person who is in their fifties or sixties and lost 30-50% of their income on taxes would now get assaulted with an additional 20-30% attack on their accumulated wealth. That is evil and unconscionable - typical dreck that pours out of the mind of a Libertarian.
What you effectively want to do is utterly destroy a consumer driver economy and dramatically convert it overnight into a purely slave labor economy where people only work and are punished for legally enjoying their produce while in America. I can't think of a more effective way to encourage a black-market economy than to have such a lop-sided taxation mechanism that focuses entirely on the reported transactions of goods.
Apparently the lesson taught regarding Amazon and California are completely lost on the Orwellian "Fair Tax" Cabal.
I’m pretty sure we did, until the 17th amendment anyway.
Somehow getting rid of all of these taxes and replacing it with a sales tax is evil? It would lead to less stability? Talk about Orwellian...
True the income tax is a VAT in spirit BUT NOT a VAT in reality..
Sometimes a VAT also taxes OUTGO... sometime income sometimes outgo, sometimes BOTH Of them..
A VAT is taxation gone viral..
[ Only when we have a tax system in place that ensures that EVERYONE has skin in the game will we begin to get control of the size and scope of our government! ]
You totally forget the TpCaucus.. which is growing in most places..
This group is the game changer.. so soon Nov. 2010 is forgotten..
The TpCaucus may be americas ONLY salvation politically..
Parties may be and probably are becoming obsolete..
We first have to undo the damage the Dems have done with their reckless spending policies by CUTTING SPENDING. After that, we can talk about reversing social engineering programs. But if we do not fix the spending issue, there wont be an economy left to fix.
It would be nice to see that AMT modified so that everyone, regardless of exemptions, credits, deductions, etc will always pay the lowest tax bracket - currently 10%
bump
don't think you understand the "Fair tax" or taxation in general when you call a sales tax a "wealth tax" as it's just the opposite.
What good is wealth if it can't be spent? Some people don't have children and thus their goal is to spend their last dime during their last breath. The "Fair Tax" insures that those dimes get squandered on government even faster.
We already have a wealth tax (capital gains),
So that "you don't understand taxation in general" statement is just projection.
Somehow getting rid of all of these taxes and replacing it with a sales tax is evil?
Yes, if you are an American. If you hate America and hate Americans you find the "Fair Tax" the perfect mechanism to harm Americans and destroy America.
Apparently you didn't get the double-taxation part of the explanation. Chris earns $100/hr gross. That $100 is halved by our government in income tax. After a lifetime of paying local sales taxes on things like food, clothing then paying for the other costs of daily living Chris socks away $20 for every hour worked. Now you want to come along and take an additional minimal $5 out of every $20 saved when it comes time for Chris to spend that money on food, clothing, shelter, utilities and every other thing including the vending machine for a soda. Your argument is that people still in the workforce will no longer be burdened by an income tax. Chris is "thrilled" since Chris has already retired and paid 50% on income and now gets to pay an additional 30%+ on already taxed income. If you can't see that is evil then there is no hope for you.
It would lead to less stability?
Absolutely. I have seen the various "Fair Tax" proposals and there are all kinds of cut-outs for the impoverished, for seniors, for every walk of life. A whole new bureaucracy and lobby effort will come in and push for increased exemptions here and there and new rules and loopholes to benefit their industry and constituency. Every person who sells something, from the candy store to your lemon-aid stand is now an unpaid agent for the government to collect the sales tax and have their books at the ready so that the former income-tax agent is now peering just as intently and with the exact same mind to trap you in a criminal action as before. Wow, what an improvement.
Lets say that you were planning on buying a yacht in 2015 but you discover that the 'Fair Tax' kicks in 2014. Are you going to go through with your plans and pay the 30% extra on that boat in 2015 or borrow money and get it now? Now multiply that decision by 300,000,000 people for a whole host of things from HDTVs to estates. You actually think that won't effect the banking industry and form a massive spike in debt and consumer spending in the months/years prior to the confiscatory sales tax - later followed by a decades long shadow of near-zero consumer activity?
Your proposal is also anti-American in that it plainly rewards foreigners who come to the US to work under an H1 only to retire back in their native lands avoiding paying tax of any sort - sponging freely off all the benefits that previous generations of taxpayers paid for - like streets, military and court systems. They get that all for free while sticking the American who plans on staying here with the full bill under your plan.
You also will greatly disrupt career paths and the employment picture. Any long-term financial planner will strongly advocate working 100hr weeks (if possible in the new economy) living in clown-houses and operating ancient vehicles all to avoid paying taxes while maximizing tax-free income. Then retire at a young age, take the accumulated expatriated wealth and enjoy life elsewhere. So there will be a massive drain on wealth, business experience, and trade skills where those who have made enough to retire in the Philippines, Costa Rica or New Zealand bug out and live like Trust fund kids enjoying life anywhere but the US.
Yes, so it is disruptive. It creates massive credit spikes, Roaring 20's style of consumer spending on high value ticket items just prior to the launch of this taxing fiasco, followed by decades of subsistence spending and massive immigration and expatriation population and wealth shifts.
The monstrous increase in sales prior to that date will jack up prices, spike the commodity markets, drive up the costs of everything - followed by a meteor-like burning free-fall the day after the tax is in effect. Government revenues would naturally plummet leading to wide open printing presses in a highly deflationary environment that immediately followed a highly inflationary economic environment, and your beloved tax would most likely be bumped up to 40 to 50% or will most likely be tiered so that it would be levied on goods "the rich" would likely to pursue leading to price controls and that insane repackaging of products to simply escape being pigeon-holed into a tax category.
Heck, in the desperate need for cash and noticing that the wealth is pouring out of the country faster than it is earned, they might go Argentina on us and levy massive taxes on those who are expatriating funds effectively incarcerating people in America. Obamacare is a reality. It isn't going away, in fact it will be made worse as the unelected Progressives in the various departments work their demonic craft on it. So there is all kinds of motivation for older people to flee the certain Death Panels that will truncate their life. When the government threatens to confiscate accumulated wealth to avoid the taxes, then they effectively prevent people from going to other countries to obtain life-saving medical care. Now you have highly motivated people who see this literally as a life-or-death matter of laundering money so that it can be expatriated.
If you like unprecedented levels of chaos, lawlessness and black market economy - you will continue to advocate a "Fair Tax"
Fortunately, even though we have evil, corrupt and malevolent politicians, none of them are that evil and corrupt to actually legislate the Fair Tax - it is safely only the wet dream of the typical dysfunctional Libertarian.
>> “Why do we need to repeal a fraud?” <<
.
Because it is the foundation of so many other frauds.
>> “The Fair Tax is *the best* solution on the table today. I support it.” <<
.
The “fair” tax would be the biggest nightmare possible, and I thank God that it is not on the table.
In making its way through congress it would on its first step become a massive VAT, because that is what at least half of congress would prefer. Neither a flat tax, nor a sales tax has any chance of passing, any more than the repeal of the 16th, which was never even close to being ratified at any time. Every state that took up the 16th added their own modifications and escape clauses.
I remember the Supreme Court quote something like..”the fraud associated with the passage of the 16th Amendment is not something we can decide here, it is a political question”...we have pols running the courts.
Any tax, which violates the rights of man is an immoral tax.
Our rights come from Nature and Nature’s God. They are not given by men or constitutions. Constitutions and the statues from which they come, are either in harmony with natural law or are in rebellion to the Creator and nature.
Two such rights, as codified in our constitution are the rights to be free in our persons, papers and effects. The other is the right to not be forced to provide evidence against ourselves.
A tax on income, be it flat, wavy or full of loop holes, requires us by force, to surrender those inalienable rights, and thus is defacto, immoral.
Only a tax on trade is a moral tax which does not violate the natural rights of freemen.
The FairTax debate on rates, margins, rebates, prebates is interesting from an academic point of view, but it is the only serious proposal which is moral in its foundation.
Trade and commerce are the only legitimate, if there are to be any at all, means of taxation, to which freemen should consent.
All others, and especially a tax on income, are an abomination.
The tithe was a tax on the fruits, it was not a tax on income and was not paid by all, but only the farmers. Paul being a tent maker and Jesus being a carpenter did not tithe. Further, it was only to provide for the Levite’s who did not have a share of the land as an inheritance. It is a total fabrication to say otherwise. This myth has been around for a long time and was rejected by our Founders as it was rejected by all other governments, but the Roman Catholic Church.
Oh, that’s not fair. Quoting those pesky Federalist Papers against the uninformed. Shame on you.
/sarc
And the FACT that the class warfare inducing, social engineering enabling, progressive income tax comes to us directly from the communist manifesto is apparently lost on YOU!
Absolutely!
Why should the wealthy, who consume as much or more than anyone else be exempted from taxation as they largely are under the income tax?
If you are truly wealthy the current tax code allows you to arrange your affairs so that you can take in lots of cash - none of which fits the definition of INCOME - and live like a king without contributing much or at all to keeping the country working. I say let make EVERYONE pay their share of the freight, as measured by what they take out of the economy and without regard income, or what they put into the economy!
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